I’m going to listen to Saffron Planet – Chatter that Matters…

I really like Saffron Planet and their way of fellowship. Although I don’t agree with everything they say, they are contending for the faith in a biblical way. In the audio that I am going to listen to deals with the ‘Blab it and Grab it’ crowd. They have Justin Peters with them. I would like to point out that Justin Peters is a Cessationist according to someone who commented on this audio. I don’t know much about him, so if you know more please comment and let me know what you know. 🙂

If the term cessationism is new to you see the following links:

 

Clearly the debate over continuation vs. cessationism continues to this day and because of hyper-charismania the pendulum appears to have swung to the reformed position of cessationism. This is not surprising. Researching such things as hyper-charismania brings up a wealth of the reformed position.

The important thing to remember is that this is not a salvation issue and i would class this as a secondary issue. But with the hyper crowd exercising spiritual gifts the most important thing to ask yourself is this… are they biblical?  There is such a thing as biblical charismatic gifts and unbiblical ones and we must discern between the two. Obviously the first place you go to in NOT experience but to the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 14…Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Anyway, I am going to attempt to listen to this audio and hopefully learn and glean what I can from it. I say ‘attempt’ because my one year old Grandson has diverted my attention from this post every few minutes or so. He is at that grabbing stage. Sticky little chubby hands reach out for my laptop despite the fact that I bought him his own baby laptop! Mine appears to be a lot more interesting to his curious eyes. I take that as ‘Please come play with me, which then of course I put blogging aside and wrestle him on the floor! 🙂

So, if you have time today, you may want to check out Saffron Planet and see if you like what you hear…

 

Name it … and blame them!

In this first part of three on the Faith and Prosperity teachers, we are privileged to be joined by Justin Peters, arguably the greatest authority on such shenanigans. In this episode we name the usual suspects. Who do we name and shame … ?

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29 thoughts on “I’m going to listen to Saffron Planet – Chatter that Matters…

  1. Listening to it now. Justin says that he is a soft-cessationist, and that he cannot conclusively prove cessationism from scripture, unlike the virgin birth which is conclusively proven from scripture.

    He also mentions that if you read the NT in chronological order healing and miracles etc,. become less and less.

    One of the ladies in this audio brings up a very interesting point about how Jesus says that we will do greater things than him… What are those greater things?

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.”

    But I found this…

    Notice John 14:12 does not say greater miracles, but rather greater works (Gr. miezon ergon).

    Greater is the Greek word meizon -neuter of 3187; (adverbially) meaning greater degree: more.

    Jesus says, “the works I do” works Gr. ergon, means to work; toil as an effort or occupation; an act of labor. They will labor greater in degree. Jesus saying “greater works than these” meant a more extensive ministry.

    Interesting!

    My question is this… will the faithful Church resemble the earliest Church just before Christ comes back again? If it does, then will the Holy Spirit become more active in the gifts of biblical prophecy as well as other gifts than it is today?

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  3. Justin Peters is a great man of God who does amazing work in exposing the errors of the Word-of-Faith movement.

    On the cessationist issue, I come from a pentecostal / charismatic background so have historically believed that the sign gifts are for today. However, in recent years I have begun to question this, simply because I’ve been unable to find genuine examples of them in the church.

    If you look into the history of the pentecostal movement, you’ll find that it’s actually quite suspect and seems to have attracted lots of dubious characters promoting unbiblical doctrines. I’ve also learn a lot more about psychology – emotional manipulation, mind tricks, group dynamics, even mass hypnotism, and it also seems that all these highly questionable practices are widespread within charismatic and pentecostal christianity. I’m wondering if my personal experiences of the Holy Spirit were false, and likewise I’ve been unable to find anyone who has had similar experiences outside of an emotionally-charged meeting.

    So, at the moment, I’m questioning a lot of what I believe about the Holy Spirit. This is really difficult for me but I see so much deception within my branch of the church that I am becoming less inclined to believe what pentecostal and charismatic teachers say. I’m also attracted by the integrity of people like Justin Peters who are in the cessationist camp.

    Please don’t get me wrong – I’m not a cessationist but could see myself becoming one. I’m also not from the extreme, hyper-charismatic end of the movement but very much middle-of-the-road.

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    • It makes me wonder if being a soft-cessationist is equivalent to being a soft-charismatic?

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic Peter. I totally get where you are coming from. I think that you are dead right when you speak about emotional manipulation… sometimes it’s bordering on mass hysteria too!

      By the way, how did you find my blog, just curious?

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      • Hi Vee,

        When you said “soft charismatic” it made me think of someone like John Piper, who whilst not aligning himself with the charismatic camp, nevertheless is quite sympathetic.

        I meant to say “In recent years I’ve also learned a lot more about psychology…” – it was the Lakeland “revival” of 2008 that really prompted this. Lakeland was so blatantly false that it made me want to understand what was going on, and I did a lot of research. It was definitely bordering on mass hysteria amongst charismatics who were so desperate to see the “power of God” that they abandoned all sense of discernment. This suggests an absence of the power of God in our everyday lives.

        But Lakeland has to be seen in context and it built on what’s always happened in every branch of pentecostal and charismatic christianity.

        I’m also not convinced by those who say that it was directly demonic. When I read an experienced christian psychiatrist saying that everything that happens in a Rodney Howard Browne meeting has a rational explanation (“Nuremberg-style manipulation” was the phrase he used), I see little reason to disbelieve him.

        To answer your question, I tend to think that the Bible suggests that there will be widespread deception and falling-away in the last days. I don’t know about the Holy Spirit being more or less active, what I do know is that most of the high-profile figures who claim to be “walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit” or similar are actually frauds.

        A friend told me about your blog, by the way.

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        • Good friend, with good taste hahaha;)
          “Nuremberg-style manipulation”, I will have to google that.

          I reckon that some of the hyper-charismania resembles Kunkalini, with all that violent shaking and stuff. Todd Bentley did have encounters with something spiritual, but it more resembled alien abduction than anything else in my opinion.

          Weird stuff!

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  4. I am a charismatic and believe the gifts are still alive and working in the kingdom. You have to look for them as so many churches have moved away from the supernatural nature of God and focus on the practical day to day life of the believer. Personally, I think the day to day should be filled with the supernatural if you are living for God.

    I will have to check out Saffron Planet. Always interested in something new.

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    • So, when you say…

      You have to look for them as so many churches have moved away from the supernatural

      Does that mean then, if there is a Church that is biblically sound in its teaching, yet it doesn’t exhibit supernatural signs then that Church is no good? Just curious 🙂

      Vee

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      • Maybe it is more of a mindset. If I am in Jesus and Jesus overcame the world, then I too have overcome. Not by my power but by the power of Jesus. If I keep asking for the strength to overcome, I am not relying on God, who has already done it, but trying to rely on my own power. I am stuck in a natural thought instead of living supernaturally, in God.

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    • Xander, Saffron Planet is a good site that really gets you thinking about things.

      I would class myself as a non-cessationist but not a hyper-charismatic.

      And the debate continues when a well known cessationist says the following in “Who’s Afraid of the Holy Spirit? An Investigation Into the Ministry of the Spirit of God Today”…

      M. James Sawyer in the final chapter:

      I believe that we in the cessationist tradition need to reconceptualize the work of the Spirit in far broader terms than we have in the past. I wonder if we have not become like the dwarfs in C.S. Lewis’ The Last Battle, so blinded by their own presuppositions that they could not recognize Aslan and his gifts to his children, with the result that they treated them as dung (p. 275).

      This is quite an admission. But Sawyer goes further, urging cessationists to heed the words of Karl Barth: “Let God be God.” Thus, he concludes: “Might we not need to take to heart his rebuke and ‘Let the Holy Spirit be God!’ – a God who is free to act in ways of his choosing as opposed to boundaries we establish?”

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      • I listened to several yesterday. Kind of interesting. I will have to get into more of the sessions.

        I can see why people felt like the Holy Spirit stopped moving. Men were more interested in forming the religion for a long time. The Catholic church took the word away from the man and left it completely dependant on the priest. You can see the workings in the third world countries a lot more than in the developed countries as we “civilized” people are more likely to dismiss them as fantasy and imagination.

        Jack Deere has some interesting things on the gifts. He was a cessationist at Dallas Theological Seminary until he experienced God in that way.

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        • Yep… Jack Deere is part of the NAR New Apostolic Reformation. There is so much unbiblical teaching within the NAR that I really don’t know where to start.

          The bible makes it very, very clear that there is no Office of Apostles anymore! It’s found in Acts.

          Read this link here to understand where I stand on things:

          http://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-prophets-restored.html

          Also the amount of false prophecy that come from these people is unbelievable! And they even KNOW it, but they accept it, how is that biblical. The bible is very clear about false prophets and that we should not have anything to do with them. They just tickle the ears.

          “He (a prophet) began to tell me five facts about my past life, and the purposes that God had behind those facts and how He would make up the loss of my fatherhood to me. Then he began to tell me things about my future and, you know, I believed him because he had been so accurate…before that morning was over, I found out that my mind was no match for the prophetic heart…Then he started on my wife …then he started on our friend Karen Davis…and then he spoke over one of the other people in the room and gave this wonderful, grandiose prophecy, about the future and all of that. and, uh, I should have known at the time that that one wasn’t right. Ummm, I should’ve known by watching the person he was prophesying over. He began to prophesy these vast roles of leadership and all that, I was looking at the guy and the guy was smiling. If he’d had the heart for that find of leadership he’d have been trembling inside. I should’ve known that that was not true but at the time, this is my first introduction, we go ‘oh that’s great’. That’s awesome! That one turned out to be really destructive. But three out of four were right on. We walked out of there super excited about the prophetic ministry.” (Jack Deere, NATIONAL SCHOOL OF THE PROPHETS “Mobilizing the Prophetic Office”, May 11, 2000 11:30 AM tape #3)

          http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/deereonprophecy.html

          I wouldn’t go near any of NARs teachers.

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        • gotquestions. It is an interesting site. You’re a Calvinist too then?

          “The Apostle Paul also stated to those in Galatia that if anyone, including himself, should teach another Gospel, that person should be “accursed” (Galatians 1:8-9). In everything, Paul kept pointing people to the Bible as the final authority. The men who claim to be apostles and prophets today make themselves the final authority, something Paul and the Twelve never did.”

          The written word Paul would have been pointing to would have been the Tanakh. The argument this site makes is wrong as the New Testament would not have been part of the final authority that Paul was preaching about and by their logic is not to be trusted. Not sure about the last sentence as I have never seen or heard one of them make that claim.

          “The foundation of the church (universal church) was laid in the first century. This is why the office of apostle is no longer functioning.”

          Where in the Bible is that claim/statement made? Matthias was chosen as an Apostle by the 11. They were not told to do so, but they did it trying to do the work of God. Paul had to defend his appointment as an Apostle by Christ. Now we are telling people they can’t be an apostle? Isn’t that God’s job?

          Try Chuck Pierce or Graham Cooke. It looks like deceptioninthechurch doesn’t like them either. If you haven’t heard them speak, you are missing an opportunity to take what they say and hold it against the Word of God.

          There is nothing wrong with not accepting spiritual gifts or workings. I just feel like you limit God in what He can do if you tell Him what He can’t do.

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  5. Vee, it’s not letting me respond directly to your last comment. Look at http://www.intotruth.org/tb/rhbexam.html for the Nuremberg quote (not quite as I put it)/

    I’m not 100% convinced by the Kundalini stuff – I think a lot of the weird manifestations are not supernatural in origin. Having said that, some do defy rational explanation – Stacey Campbell’s wild head-sheaking was one.

    Some of Todd’s stories did resemble the X-files or similar – I really don’t know whether he deliberately made them up or genuinely believed they happened. The phrase “pathological liar” was used about him, so I’m minded to say he knew full well that they were completely false.

    There was one where supposedly he had a supernatural implantation of virtue (or something similar – it’s on YouTube somewhere), which is laughable given that he cheated on his first wife at least twice.

    Going back on topic to finish, my recent soul-searching exercise has made me look back at the last 25 years. Thinking about it objectively, I’ve seen very little in the way of genuine “sign gifts” of the spirit but a lot of deception. Whilst I still remain a charismatic in a theoretical sense, I’m not convinced that the situation on the ground matches up with the claims of the theology.

    The one thing the charismatic/pentecostal movements have done is to revitalise worship. But even that seems to have lost its way in recent years and I have major concerns about the commercialisation of worship music and the way some churches seem to model themselves on pop concerts.

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    • Peter, I have set the reply to only allowing 4 deep. Reason is because each response gets narrower and narrower.

      That implantation that you spoke about… I was searching for something about that last night. I remember he said that. I also remember something that I had come across when I was researching the Todd Bentley saga, but I couldn’t find it. Basically it was Aboriginal teaching that their shamans had been visited by star gods and that those star gods had put boxes in them.

      Oooo look I found it… 🙂

      Ritual death and resurrection, abduction by powerful beings, ritual removal or rearrangement of body parts, symbolic disembowelment, implanting of artifacts, aerial ascents and journeys into strange realms, alien tutelage and enlightenment, personal empowerment, and transformation – these and many other phenomena are recurring elements of the extraordinary shamanic tradition.

      At the turn of the last century, anthropologists Spencer and Gillen, in their book The Northern Tribes of Central Australia (1904), provided a classic account of the extraordinary shaman genre.

      An aborigine, Kurkutji, was set upon by two spirits, Mundadji and Munkaninji, in a cave: "Mundadji cut him open, right down the middle line, took out all of his insides and exchanged them for those of himself, which he placed in the body of Kurkutji. At the same time he put a number of sacred stones in his body.

      After it was all over, the youngest spirit, Munkaninji, came up and restored him to life, told him that he was now a medicine-man

      http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mitos_creacion/esp_mitoscreacion_2.htm

      The above account is not to dissimilar to Todd Bentley’s account!

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  6. Vee, I messed up writing this previous comment. I thought a paragraph had disappeared but now I see it went in the wrong place. Can you delete the third paragraph, please? It’s unfinished and doesn’t make sense!

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  7. I was once into the hyper-charismatic move and the connections between the NAR were being preached in the church I attended. It wasn’t until I read the whole bible in a year, that I found that what was happening was not biblical and that the so called apostles NAR were not even biblical…

    Scripturally we find that the apostles were all personally chosen by the Lord Jesus. Mt.10:1-4 and in Lk.6:12-16 names the 12 apostles, one of which was chosen for perdition. The 70 as well as the twelve were also trained and sent out. The position of the apostles were not permanently fixed number until after the resurrection (Matt. 19:28-30; Lk. 22:28-34; Jn. 21:15-18). The number 12 then becomes an eternally established number.

    Matthew and Mark use the term “apostle” only once for the Twelve who were sent on a missionary journey (Matt. 10:2; Mk. 6:30). Luke uses the title the most frequently and almost exclusively calls the Twelve “apostles” (Lk. 6:13; 9:10; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:26; 2:43; 4:35,37; 5:2,12,18; 8:1. )

    One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism. They also were to have seen the risen Lord be witnesses of his resurrection. When the closed group of twelve became eleven, they sought another to take Judas’ office: Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time the Lord Jesus went in and among us beginning from the baptism of John to that day he was taken up from us One of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.’ “

    The men went on to cast lots, and the lot fell on Mattias which closed the group of 12 permanently. We later see God choosing Paul in Acts 9. Also see 1 Corinthians 9: 1.) We find that the apostles were given authority to perform special miracles . In Revelation 12:12 there are 12 gates and the name of the 12 tribes in Rev.21:14, there is reference to twelve foundations with the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb which are written on them in Heaven. Jesus referred to this in Mt.19:28, that in the millennium those who have followed him (the apostles) will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. These twelve seem to relate to Israel specifically, while Paul does not.

    Paul’s own words in defense of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor. 9:1: “Am I not an apostle? … Have I not seen Jesus Christ our lord? Essentially there were two different groups those who were with Jesus when he was alive and then were witnesses of his resurrection and Paul as one who was witness to his resurrection only not having him be of the 12.(I need to mention that there are some who hold the position that apostleship was temporary and as Judas was replaced so could be any of the others. This does not seem to be a tenable position since there is no mention of this occurring in scripture.)

    In 1 Cor. 15 Paul describes the gospel and concentrates on the resurrection and the sequence of his appearing during the 40 day period after the resurrection.Vs.5 “And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: then by over 500.” Vs.7 “Then he was seen by James then by all the apostles.”

    After the resurrection the “twelve”, is a number used to Identify the apostles originally with Jesus. This does not necessarily mean their were 12 only gathered to see him. The term 12 identified them as the group number that began with John and saw the resurrection. But from the group of 500 he appeared to, there were apostles among them as well as in vs.7 Then the apostles all.

    Other requirements within this first qualification of being from John and a witness to the resurrection. He must have been taught divine truth by Jesus personally (Gal.1:1,12; 1Cor.15:3). The 11 were commissioned together as Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit as an indication of their unity and authority to forgive sins ads they proclaimed the Gospel. The exception is Paul who was taught personally by Christ while he was in Arabia for 3 years. When he emerged he had the same teaching as the 12. (Jn.14:26, 16:13; 1 Cor.13:37) So an apostle will agree with the already commissioned apostles in Scripture.

    They were commissioned to communicate the very words of the Lord (1 Thess.2:13;1 Jn.4:6) They could speak words of judgment and the miraculous and have it immediately executed (Jn.20:23; Acts 5:3-11; 13:10, 1 Cor.5:3-5; 1 Tim.1:20). The Apostles exercised a position of authority as a community of elders over the church which was to be obeyed as if it was the Lord himself. (1 Cor.5:3-5; 2 Cor.10:6,8,11; 2 Thess.3:7-12,14). All these were in the nature of the office of an apostle.

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    • But the eleven were not instructed to take a 12th apostle. They chose that route. Per the requirements that they used, “One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism”, Paul did not meet that requirement so could not be rightly deemed an apostle. So if Paul claimed apostleship, he is either a liar or the qualifications were from men and not God.

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      • Then he is a liar when he says the he was the least of the apostles born out of time when he says in Ephesians 3…???

        7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

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        • In verse 7 it states that Jesus appeared to him who is untimely born for the role of apostleship. He says that he is unfit for the role, but it is by the Grace of God that he is called to this role.

          So, man did not choose him but God Himself!

          Now in Ephesians it sets out why they were chosen:

          Ephesians 2:19-20: “Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

          In Ephesians 2:20 we are presented with an exclusive group of men to whom was committed the task of laying the foundation of the Church. Their work is done once and for all time. It will not and cannot ever be repeated. The apostles and prophets of Ephesians chapter 2 verse 20 have established THE FAITH, which is once for all committed to the saints. Those who follow, irrespective of what their ministry calling is, are called to contend earnestly for that faith.

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        • So the major author of the New Testament is a liar. Sweet

          Paul claims to have been chosen by God, but that is what you say the people in NAR are claiming. The NAR people are wrong for claiming, but Paul isn’t.

          I am saying that Mattias was chosen by men rather than God. Jesus said go and wait. Not go and pick another to replace Judas. They talked among themselves and decided the criteria from what they had observed. They cast lots among those that met the criteria and one was selected. No great calling from God as to who it was supposed to be. No one was killed so we can assume that it was ok, but no proof as to that.

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  8. The bible clearly establishes who the apostles were and what criteria was needed to be an apostles. See above comment.

    You ask..

    “The foundation of the church (universal church) was laid in the first century. This is why the office of apostle is no longer functioning.”

    Where in the Bible is that claim/statement made?

    1 Cor 3:10-11: “According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master-builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

    These men — ‘NAR’ — claim that it is modern end time “apostles” who form the basis on which the foundation of this new Church will be built. Their statement doesn’t make sense either logically or theologically. How can “the foundation” of the Church be “built upon apostles and prophets”? Scripture does not claim this even in respect of the original “apostles and prophets”. The clear meaning of Paul’s statement in Ephesians 2:20 in the light of 1 Cor 3:10-11, is that the apostles and prophets were chosen by God to lay the foundation of the Church. They were not the basis on which that foundation was laid, which is what Wagner and his gang claim regarding themselves. This is a fundamental heresy and one that the founders of historic Protestantism refuted to the point of martyrdom. Roman Catholicism teaches that the Church is founded upon Peter. The Reformers, relying solely upon the Word of God, taught that the true Church is founded upon Christ alone. Here is Paul’s statement in context:

    Ephesians 2:19-20: “Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

    In Ephesians 2:20 we are presented with an exclusive group of men to whom was committed the task of laying the foundation of the Church. Their work is done once and for all time. It will not and cannot ever be repeated. The apostles and prophets of Ephesians chapter 2 verse 20 have established THE FAITH, which is once for all committed to the saints. Those who follow, irrespective of what their ministry calling is, are called to contend earnestly for that faith.

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    • In your own statement:

      “Their statement doesn’t make sense either logically or theologically. How can “the foundation” of the Church be “built upon apostles and prophets”? Scripture does not claim this even in respect of the original “apostles and prophets”.”

      Ephesians 2:19-20: “Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

      The household of God is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, per Ephesians 2:19:20. It seems to backup what you say they are claiming.

      1 Cor 3:10-11: “According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master-builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

      Paul claims he laid the foundation, but it is built on him as he claims to be an apostle and prophet

      As to NAR claiming that they are the foundation, I cannot find this anywhere except from the people attacking the group. Without seeing what they wrote or spoke, I cannot take a side. I would assume though that they are trying to use it in the same context as Paul, which Jesus is the basis of everything they speak, but I have no proof as to it.

      “In Ephesians 2:20 we are presented with an exclusive group of men to who was committed the task of laying the foundation of the Church. Their work is done once and for all time. It will not and cannot ever be repeated. The apostles and prophets of Ephesians chapter 2 verse 20 have established THE FAITH, which is once for all committed to the saints. Those who follow, irrespective of what their ministry calling is, are called to contend earnestly for that faith.”

      The New Testament was still in the process of being written, so how can we say that the faith and all that it means was already established at that time when what we consider the Word of God had not been completed? Doesn’t the New Testament explain that faith to us? We don’t even have all of the gospels at the time this was written.

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  9. Ok… I have asked a few of my very trusted pastor friends all about this… and Corby Stephens — you can check out his blog which is found on the right sidebar under blogroll says to me:

    I don’t know if I have a unique take on this or not. Acts 1 comes before Acts 2. Obvious I know. Acts 2 is the coming upon of the Spirit who will teach them all truth. In my opinion, Peter, pre-coming upon, takes two verses completely out of context in order to do something that seems right but was not ordered by Jesus or scripture so far as we can tell. If there was supposed to be a 12th it seems to me this was not to be the man nor the way to accomplish it.

    I’ve heard some argue against Matthias because he doesn’t surface again by name. Neither do 10 of the apostles if memory serves, so for me that argument is right out.

    As for apostles, one has to understand the word apart from the 12. An apostles is a person who is sent out on behalf of another. Similar to epistle, something that is sent out. Jesus had His apostles, His sent out ones. 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 both describe the office/gift of apostle which says to me it has a function beyond the 12, just as the other offices/gifts mentioned in the same context.

    Consider this. A missionary, a church planter, is one who is sent out. He has/is the authority over the church which he plants. He is, for all intents and purposes, an apostle. Those in modern charismania who take on the title, in my opinion, have no understanding of this. They take on, or are given, a mantle of authority very much out of context.

    soooo… I am just gleaning from other minds about this.

    But I still think that NAR have an over-realised eschatology (dominionist – Kingdom Now teaching) and have had many false prophecies (which would class them as false prophets by biblical standards) which according to the OT a false prophet should be stoned to death, but we do have the NT and it warns us not to entertain their doctrine.

    I am waiting on two other pastor friends of mine to get back to me on this topic of apostleship etc,.

    Thanks for the discussion, I really appreciate it 🙂

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  10. Not sure about NAR, but from the Internation Coalition of Apostles, I do not see the heresy.

    I enjoyed the discussion. Gives me a chance to look at new things.

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