Over 2 hours of conversation with my Dad!

For over 2 hours I spoke to my dad about his new found Atheism. He has very definately become an atheistic humanist, or agnostic, we both are unsure about that one still. I feel totally exhausted by the conversation we just had. He lives for the day — actually the moment — and denies that anyone can really know about yesterday’s history or even trust any written form of an historical account, even secular recent history. He said… unless you were there you cannot know for sure that such and such happened.

I asked him about how we all got here on planet earth. His response was that he did not believe in evolution, or creation. He doesn’t know and it doesn’t concern him, because no-one can prove it because no-one was there.

I asked him about sin. He said that is the biggest con job of all, along with a so called man called Jesus and his resurrection, because if you believe in sin then you have to believe that you are not a good person and only God through this so called Jesus can save you from it.

He believes in the social good which produces productivity in humanity… the Golden Rule which every religion and atheist can believe in. You don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to yourself.

I spoke about social laws and how they change within cultures and times and are relative to the age. He said that all laws have to be fair, and productive, in this way he can still say that homosexuality is wrong as it is a path that leads to death, an unproductive life. They cannot reproduce, therefore it is unnatural and that is the only way he would debate that, on a purely humanistic view of productivity.

We spoke about prophecies and fulfilment. He said that if you write enough of them some would come true after any length of time.

One thing he did say that interested me a great deal is this… he said that he has never in his 40 years of asking God to show him that he exists, has he had an encounter with something or an encounter that changed his atheism. He has not had a born again experience. He said if he was to have God knock him down and show to him Himself, then he would believe. He has asked for this for over 40 years, and nothing has happened!

When he came out and admitted his atheism to one and all he still gave God — who he disbelieves in — a chance to show him God is some way or form… but nothing has ever happened to prove to him in His existence. Nowadays he doesn’t even challenge God to prove Himself. He knows he cannot prove there is no God, but he also knows that no-one can prove that there is God! He admits that Atheism is a faith, just like Christianity is a faith. He admits that he has not sinned against some spiritual thing that is only written about by men who believe in the same spiritual thing, yet he admits that he has erred against mankind is some way, yet this is not sin, it is whatever we do that hurts another, and is found not to be socially productive.

Remember he has had 40 years of constant bible study to come up with arguments against a book that he regards as just man’s understanding of something that is made up to bring people into line with the common good. Taoism is something that is brought to mind here.

He said that the biggest con job of all is the concept of sin, the resurrection and the concept of heaven and hell.

Yet, when I said that perhaps his quest should lay in how we got here on planet earth at all… he just doesn’t care! He said that creation or evolution does not answer that question, and that question does not even bother him at all, all he cares about is the day, today, the moment.

When I spoke to him, I told him that according to the bible it is clear that he has not been born again of the spirit, he said… What spirit. There is no spirit.

He is the most convincing humanist I have ever met. He knows all of the arguments before I have even mentioned them! He knows the bible back to front and he does not trust any written word, as it is all just perceived and not necessarily truthfully perceived. I even said that he could even deny the holocaust with that kind of thinking… He agreed and said yes, that is true. He was very honest about it.

I am just blown away by all of this.

If you want to be filled in by my dad’s journey into Atheism read…

My dad is going mythical!!

Orbs of Light — What next?

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9 thoughts on “Over 2 hours of conversation with my Dad!

  1. Excellent! I have come to the same conclusion but would rather work from within the Christian faith. Always acknowledging that we strive to do our best in the the framework of what we understand to be Christian and applies to any religion of familiarity.
    I started this morning wanting to write that Jesus had no desire to create a new religion but rather was a Jew through and through.

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  2. If truth is relevant to one’s perception and will, then how can any of us ever know what is and isn’t truth? We live in the most informed society man has ever known and it seems like it’s a curse rather than a blessing, doesn’t it?

    God help him and help you to carry on in this. God can make the blind see and the deaf hear!

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  3. Oh Vee. At least your dad is honest. I will pray that God will either knock him down and show Himself, or just open his eyes.

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  4. Thanks for your concerns and I am grateful for your prayers.

    I received the following in an email about this situation…

    no amount of debate or reasoning will ever break through. This is because it is not a natural issue, it is a spiritual thing (spiritual things always defy reason & logic). This needs to be fought on a spiritual basis

    Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    But there is even better news because Romans 8:38-39 says “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Only the Holy Spirit can convict your dad, all we can do is pray & pray & pray for him- intercede for him, don’t worry, the Holy Spirit will guide us on how to pray (Romans 8:26- Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.)

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  5. Standing in the gap with you, Vee, for your dad. I beleive the Holy Spirit is moving us all to take seriously the prayers for our unsaved relatives and revival in general. It seems to be every where. Your letter is good encouragement for all of us. I thank GOd for the writer of it. I, too, have felt the need to reread Romans at this time so it is interesting that your letter mentions it. Here is some more encouragement that I wrote about today: http://rss.epsilen.com/Content/Tools/News/Public/PersonalNewsRSSView.aspx?nvk=OjI1MDczMTE=

    God bless you,
    Melly

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  6. Thanks for that Melly..

    Hey, the daily quote section on your website…. do you write them? They are very good!

    Actually, the one that you linked to in your comment has so many points that I would like to discuss further.

    One is the concept of living right… now that could be discussed on the last post that I made about discrimination. That one is still something that needs to be discussed without the emotionalism that is far too often tied in with it. Or perhaps I can write a quick post and ask this very question… I am not sure yet, I will wait and see if my other post gets picked up and takes this direction that I hope it takes. We will see…

    Anyway…

    The other point that you made relates to something that I spoke to my dad about, that was Job and his trials. Dad had a hard time understanding why Job’s family and friends had to die and go through hardship… all this they went through to show Job’s loyalty to God. Dad got sick of hearing that if anything bad happened to Christians then it was the devils fault, and if anything good happened it was God’s doing. He said ENOUGH of that. I said well, Paul thanked God for his hardship.

    Is it right for us to blame the devil when God Himself has allowed the devil to become a tool to test us or to strengthen us?

    Remember, dad’s Church was right into the Word of Faith, blab it and grab it, health and wealth, you are a kingdom kid – so you deserve everything kind of teaching. Of course this is skewed theology.

    I said that sometimes God’s answer to our prayers is a flat out NO, not matter how many times we petition Him! I don’t know why this is so in every circumstantial detail, but sometimes He answers in a way that is counter to what we want. We don’t see the bigger picture and we have to be prepared to not understand things fully in this life. Dad said that this kind of thinking was a cop out as much as blaming the devil or thanking God for situations!

    He also said that we would be praying against God’s will if we continue to ask for something that is not going to be granted because of His so called mysterious ways? He never, ever really grasped the concept of demanding God to heal or bless someone or something and he always said… who are we to demand God do this or that. I agreed totally with him on that point and said that is why I have big problems with the teaching they were both getting at the Church they were attending at the time.

    I have an awful feeling that dad is a microcosm of this current kingdom teaching. This may well be the result we will start to see.

    May we all keep our eyes fixed of the Truth of His Word, and THE Word of God who became flesh!

    Vee

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  7. You are most welcome.

    Do I write them? Well, no and yes. What I do is pray beforehand and ask God to help me get out of the way so that Jesus will say what He wants to say through me for that day. So left to my on devices, a sheet of paper (or in this case, a computer interface) is pretty hard for me to fill up on my own lonesome despite the fact that I do enjoy writing very much. 🙂 Now proof of that is….

    Tonight I have been personally struggling to “be thankful to God for everything.” (even those hardships) I have a good friend who was in surgery today and lost a kidney due to a returned cancer, I have faced another day of rejection as a stander for a prodigal, my finances have been under severe attack, and my faith in holding fast to a promise of God in impossible circumstances is being sorely tested. Yet through it all, the Father took care of the daily provisions just enough to keep me focused on our “daily bread” (and He means it this time – no more no less) and gave strength even in my weakness when I gave into frustration. Each time when the day ends and I see He has taken me through it, I know that I was stretched just a little farther. And that is what gives me hope. It is for a purpose, not necessarily for a reason, which is a distinction I think helps the discussion a great deal. Purpose takes us out of the realm of our own reasoning (which can get pretty circular at times and crazy-making )and allows for God’s ways “which are past tracing”. Chesterton has a great quote that sets relying on reason alone back a bit and helps us get a proper framework for thinking that bridges the head with the heart: ” Everyone who has had the misfortune to talk with people in the heart or on the edge of mental disorder knows that their most sinister quality is a horrible clarity of detail; a connecting of one thing with another in a map more elaborate than a maze. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it for, in many ways, his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgement. He is not hampered by a sense of humor or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason….[The Madman of Experience] is in the clean and well-lit prison of one idea: he is sharpened to one painful point. He is without healthy hesitation and healthy complexity. ”

    That last part is really the key: healthy complexity. For example, “Prosperity Gospel” if put under this rigorous test, has no “healthy complexity” to it. So it doesn’t make sense to someone who reasons that way when a thorough reading of the Bible reveals a union of contrasts (as opposed to contradictions).

    I would definitely like to hear more of what people here on this board would like to see talked about and put those subjects up for future DailyQuotes.

    Melly

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  8. It is for a purpose, not necessarily for a reason, which is a distinction I think helps the discussion a great deal. Purpose takes us out of the realm of our own reasoning

    Exactly!

    “Prosperity Gospel” if put under this rigorous test, has no “healthy complexity” to it.

    Can you explain the above a little more for me please?

    Thanks… by the way, I have commented further on my discriminated – once we disagree, have we? post, if anyone cares to discuss this more 🙂

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  9. Pingback: Are we experiencing a famine of sorts? « Living Journey

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