I love Ravi Zacharias, I have read four of his books and I receive his newsletters on a regular basis. But I have to admit that over the last year his newsletters were sounding a little off beat. Something I couldn’t quite put my finger on.
But one day I received a newsletter that spoke about how Ravi had gone to ‘The Church of Latter Day Saints‘ to speak. Moriel has also documented this about this event:
Eye witnesses reported that Ravi’s message was unsettling in many way to the Mormon leaders, yet the Desert News stated that, “ While he {Ravi} acknowledged that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ in many of their views from historic Christianity, he emphasized much of what they share in reverence for a being both consider the divine Savior of mankind.”
Christians and Mormons share a “reverence for a being both consider the divine Savior of mankind”? The Mormons have a different Jesus! True Christians do not revere the Jesus of Mormons who is the ½ brother of Lucifer.
It seems during one Q & A session held after the Tabernacle event, Ravi was asked by an apparent LDS girl to state what exactly the differences are concerning the Trinity; Ravi declined by claiming he was a guest. He went on to affirm there are deep differences, and then simply talked about how we are to dialogue respectfully between the two faiths. I can’t imagine Jesus or Paul leaving a person seeking the Truth in error.
Since reading that in a newsletter, I have had some concerns about the direction that Zacharias was heading. I left it on the back burner but hadn’t addressed it until now.
Now it appears my concerns are becoming a little more justified as Lighthouse has posted on some more rather disturbing news.
On Ravi’s own web-site he has included some questionable authors who endorse mystic new-age practices.
- Jill Carattini Among her favorite thinkers are Malcolm Muggeridge, Henri Nouwen, and many of the early church pilgrims, though the writings of C.S. Lewis have been most formative in her own thought and writing.
- Danielle DuRant (Danielle speaks of Richard J Foster from RENOVARE about his book Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home, he also has his own bible translation called ‘The Spiritual Formation Bible‘) Richard J. Foster writes that God longs for us “to come home to where we belong, to come home to that for which we were created.” He describes God’s love for us in a series of memorable rooms that He invites us into: “the dining room of his strength, where we can feast to our heart’s delight… the study of his wisdom, where we can learn and grow and stretch…and ask all the questions we want…the bedroom of his rest, where new peace is found….”
These so called ‘series of memorable rooms‘ (DuRant’s article is called ‘Places in the Heart’) are beginning to sound a little too like the interior castle that I have posted about before! This may be a bit of jump, but I am sure with time all will become apparent.
Anyway, I am going to flag him and this whole places in the heart thing… Let’s see where this goes!!!
Related Articles:
-
Can Christians and Mormons Stand Together? by Mike Oppenheimer
-
Seven Mansions by Carla from More Books and Things
living journey 
P.S. I need to correct myself: I said Paul when I meant James in the following paragraph: Yet the Apostle Jame points out the incomplete nature of that statement that can catch us off guard when he says in James 2:19: “…that even the demons believe and shudder.” So he’s saying quite plainly that this was a problem for the first century chrisitians as it is for us today. There has to be more involved than just believing; we must accompany certain knowledge and actions in accord with that belief.
LikeLike
Let’s not get into a whole philosophical debate about the definition of Judging. Can I make the assumption most Christians understand the difference between knowing right and wrong and being judgmental and condemnation? If I can make that assumption then why is it so hard to accept a religion that teaches very similar beliefs? They may not be the same, but… I’m wasting my time aren’t I? If some people are so full of hate that they can not look beyond the little, and yes I mean little, differences in the different christen sects, why limit it to Mormons? Why not accost the Catholics or Baptists or Lutherans?
I still do not understand the animosity towards the Mormon Church from other Christians. It reminds me of the animosity from the Jews to the early Christians.
And are you comparing the Mormon Church to the demons? I really do not get it. It’s sad to me. We can not get past this my god is better than your god.
LikeLike
Hi Taylor,
I agree that we can find common ground on many aspects of what is considered right and wrong, and being judgemental and condemnatory. Even those who don’t believe in God can often come to an agreement on some of those points because it is evidenced in a country’s civil laws. There is an image of God still remaining in us that allows that to happen. Now considering a thing being similar and the same cannot be on an equal platform. I may have a red felt fedora and you may have a red brimmed panama, Both are red. Both are hats…but they are not the same, are they? As to Mormons and Christians, yes, there are key philosophical differences stemming from a subscription to a different canon apart from and in addition to the Bible. I think that is something we all understand.
I want to make clear that I do not hate Mormons and I am a Christian. Nor have I used that term here. I don’t believe any of the Christian friends that I know hate Mormons either. Where we diverge, at least, in this current discussion (and hopefully we can clear this away), is what is meant by the term “hate” and why does it come up in a discussion where viewpoint diverge? I may say “I hate okra” but it doesn’t mean that I am gong to find some means of doing it harm. I bear it no animosity at all! I don’t really “hate” okra. What I mean is that I don’t like the taste of it or the texture.
Now the Bible does use the term “Hate” in a couple of scriptures as meaning “loving something less” than Jesus (Luke 12:9) and in another, as meaning placing a prohibition on what is a bad practice or unscriptural belief (Romans 12:9) in order that we can obey God as He asked us to do. In other words, Form of worship is very important to God. In the early days their were false prophets and true just as there are in our day. We are told to separate ourselves from such false prophets in a very strongly worded language throughout the Bible. I would think that any one who loved God devotedly would take those admonitions seriously since they have serious consequences. A good rule for all of us to consider when we are choosing our church is this: “Aim for unity in truth and form that doesn’t violate the substance of God’s Word.” -R.Z. So can we start by asking ourselves some worthy questions as we pray for God’s direction on the matter of how we worship and where: Does it look after widows and orphans and help us to keep ourselves without spot from the world? (James 1:26, 27) Does it add or take away from God’s word? (Rev. 22:18) If so, then we need to put away anything in our heart that is preventing us from seeing things God’s way.
Am I comparing the Mormon Church to the demons? No, I am not. But I would ask how you would interpret this scripture in light of what you believe: (1 Timothy 4:1) How would you give an answer to that?
You raise another good question about denominations and it does go back to the concept of not violating the substance of God”s word. Do these denominations you mention aim for a unity of truth that doesn’t violate God’s word? That is the question we need to ask ourselves. While this is not openly part of the discussion, it is still implied, the unity of the church should be a concern to any devoted Christian. God has expressly asked through His word that there “..not be any divisions amongst you but that you be fitly united.” ( 1 Cor. 1: 1-3) No one will disagree that God’s servants should be unified and reconciled to Him and the church is not currently doing that. But on what basis should that be done? The Cross is the one place where we must all go for salvation, right? So we can agree on that? But where to next? Most Christian churches have one thing thing that they have held in common down through the ages and that is a common creed. And this creed centers around the universal church, which is understood when most Christians use the word “church” or as cited in the creed “One holy apostolic catholic church”. The “catholic” simply means “universal” in that sense and is not to be confused with the denomination “Roman Catholic Church”. That creed holds all the basic points of doctrine based exclusively on God’s Word, the Bible and common to the denominations you mention and a few other mainstream protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox denominations. If I understand that you see some unity in the denominations represented on this board and this ones you mention, then hopefully that is a good thing and it will only grow deeper to God’s glory. I hope that answers your question.
God bless you,
Melanie
LikeLike
it is funny you brought up Romans 12:9 i am reading the new testament again and just read Romans 12 and 13 this week 🙂
anyway yes i did think of that as right before you mentioned it, and i agree the bible says you should “hate” what is evil… but now should i consider any denomination apart from the denomination i follow evil? Or is that referring to something different. I personally believe he wasn’t referring to the different denominations that He knew would come to be, but referring to the openly Anti-Christian organizations that have come to be and are all around us.
As far as 1 Timothy 4:1, if i looked at it the way some other people do then any church that “departs” from what Jesus originally taught could be considered doctrines of devils. but none of us will really know exactly, word for word what he taught, so all the current denominations are docterins of devils. How many times has the bible each of us use been translated? if it isnt the actual Aramaic word for word transcript of what Jesus said, then technically, according to that reasoning, we are departing from the faith right? I don’t think that’s what it means, I think He is way more understanding than that. I think it refers to the new age spirituality stuff… the look inside yourself to find your own inner god type stuff. That’s the type of stuff I think is “giving heed to seducing spirits.” And “departed from the faith.”
Yes I hope all Christians can work together no matter what denomination. I do not understand the need to pick apart and argue with other denominations when Christianity as a whole is under attack. How often do you hear about a preacher being protested for speaking out about immorality or people being called hate mongers because they choose to speak out about what they think is immoral and wrong.
I would think we should rejoice in the fact that someone has a testimony of Jesus, even if it is a little different from mine or yours. Wouldn’t you agree?
god bless you too (i think thats something not said enough in our society anymore)
LikeLike
Hi Taylor,
I’m glad to hear that you are enjoying your reading of Romans. It is a very rich book with a lot of invaluable material from the Lord to help us. The Holy Spirit, I sense, is giving us some direction here. 🙂
You ask “should I consider any denomination apart from the denomination that I follow evil?” I think it will help our discussion if we pare this down to what is meant by “denomination”. In your previous post , you mentioned Lutherans, Catholics, and Baptists. And in my answer to that post, I mentioned the common creed that is accepted by all denominations that are considered part of the Christian Church. There are some religions that claim to preach Jesus but also do not claim to be part of the Church that accepts this common creed. For instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept this creed. They see themselves as a religion apart. Similarly, Mormons also see themselves apart from this creed and therefore from the universal church. As such, both they and Jehovan’s Witnesses by their own admission and stand apart and also by secular classification (on forms and even wikipedia online) do not consider themselves to be denominations of a larger unit such as the Christian church that bases itself on orthodox teaching and doctrine. I might add that both of these groups started in the 1800’s (mid to late) during a period from which sprang many “teachers” that broke away from established churches that adhered to the common creed of orthodox apostolic teaching. Joseph Smith, like Charles Taze Russell came out of that period of time. So here we come down to 1 Timothy 4:1 and your answer. These individuals I mention previously did depart from what Jesus originally taught (for example, most specifically in Mr. Russell’s case about Hell which Jesus clearly did teach and Mr. Russell emphatically denied as do Jehovah’s Witnesses to this day) Similarly, Mormons teach a “different Jesus” other than the Jesus the scriptures tell us about and the Counselor (and teacher), the Holy Spirit,bears witness to us about. Is this important in light of 1 Timothy 4: 1? 1 Corinthians gives us a second witness to verify that, yes, it is very important when making our decision about someone claiming to be a witness of Jesus but who does not preach what is known from the scriptures and who adds to them with their own ideas for Paul says: ” I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a different Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel (good news) from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.” Then Paul goes on in vs. 13 to expose these false teachers. (1 Corinthians 11:13-15) Do you see here what Paul is getting at in regards to those who preach what is contrary to what is considered the “inspired word of God”? (See 2 Timothy 3:16 about “all scripture being inspired of God”)
As to our Bible coming down to us in the form we recognize and term the Holy Scriptures, we can look to two things that establish it as being trustworthy and relaible in its present form. 1) Our trust in God that He is fully capable of making sure that He would protect His word down to our present day so that we could obey Him since our very lives depend on it. and 2) The Bible itself has an internal cannonicity to it as 2 Timothy 3:16 attests to. Most scriptures can be referenced to other scriptures across both the old and new testament. Jesus himself frequently quoted the Hebrew scriptures as did the other New Testament writers under the Holy Spirit’s direction. Indeed, even Satan himself quoted scripture! So the Bible is trustworthy as our source for truth.
In answer to your question about rejoicing over every “testimony of Jesus” , I would say that these are difficult days. They are days the apostle Paul told us would come, full of false teachers, divisions, attacks from without and from within. I agree, It is not easy and it is not going to be easy. But the Father has given us the scriptures and the Holy Spirit as our Counselor and teacher and the whole association of brothers as the Body of Christ to help us navigate our way safely through. If we keep in constant prayer ( 1 Thessalonians 5:17) exercising faith in what has been handed down to us as “healthful teaching” and be cautious, we’ll gain the victory and truly have cause for rejoicing! I hope that helps in seeing the difference.
God bless you,
Melanie
LikeLike
It seems to me that you might never accept the Mormon Church as fellow Christians, and the fact that you want to continue to debate me as to why your faith is more pure or better than that of a Mormon just seems arrogant to me. I can tell you know your scriptures very well, and that is amazing and inspiring. I wish I could quote you verses half as well as you do.
But you have to understand two people can read the same verse in the same translation in the same version of the bible and get two different meanings out of it. That’s simply human nature. Our views are colored by many experiences in our lives. So rather than putting so much effort into trying to prove Mormons wrong, why not be happy they teach very similar beliefs and values? I really do not get it.
Why is it so hard to look beyond that and accept the fact that the Mormon Church teaches good values? Its seems people try to find every little verse that can some how, if you use it in just the right way, be used to justify calling another church “evil” or “of the devil?”
I agree these are difficult days, and attacks are happening from outside and from within. But I do not believe the Mormon Church is that threat that is trying to destroy Christianity from within. How often do you see other Christian churches change their values to be accepting of the perversion all around us? It seems to me that the Mormons are the opposite of that. Rather than conforming to the immorality in the U.S. today, they seem to have stood apart from even from some other Christian churches by not accepting the main stream decline in society. Trying to teach their members to stay away from corrupt movies or immoral social activities. Now how is that of the devil? Yeah I’m sure Satan is really trying to lead Christians away from the teachings of Jesus by having them not take part in drunkenness (Romans 13) or abstain from premarital sex, or not take illicit drugs. You are right, that is so clearly Satan’s path.
Ravi Is a great guy, Joel Osteen is as well. I think the Pope and the President of the Mormon Church are great men also. Why is it so hard to see that Mormons may not be the same but they are still fellow Christians?
LikeLike
ps i would never try to be mean or insult you, thats not my intention, my demeanor is more of a plea for help than a rant.
thank you and god bless you too
LikeLike
Dear Taylor,
I’m sorry if I upset you. That is not my intention. I apologize if I chose the wrong words. I did my best after prayer for the Holy Spirit to help me. If I sounded in any way to be arrogant to you, that was not what was in my heart. My only desire was to help you and I both to reason from the scriptures with the hope of the Holy Spirit. I know this is hard but please hear me on this: it is important to God which way we go and what we understand from His word. If you and I were reading a novel for class and were asked to write an essay about our interpretation of that novel, then yes, I agree with you that you and I might have entirely different interpretations and both might be valid. However, the BIble is not just a book. It is the inspired Word of God. None of us on our own can understand it. That is why we need the Holy Spirit who is our Counselor and our Teacher. What I have written to you is not of my own originality. It comes from God. It comes from men of faith who have proved that faith and have all met in agreement on the basic teachings of the Christ. I admire any person who tries to live a moral life. It is a kindness when we do that for each other. There are many groups who profess to do that and demonstrate that. They are nice people. God wants something more for you and I. Christ came not only to teach us how to live, He came to reconcile us to God. And God has more in store for us than to make us nice people. He wants to make us “Sons of God”. We need the Holy Spirit to do that for us, inside us. He is the one that helps us not to depend on our own interpretations but to have the mind of Christ.
I only meant to help and not to hinder you because love protects. Please forgive me if I have spoken in a way that hurt rather than helped. My intent was to speak in love. I respect what you have to say and will continue to keep you in my prayers. Please do think in prayer about what I have said. God loves you very much.
God Bless you,
Melanie
LikeLike
Thank you, but do not worry. No, you did not offend me, and i hope i did not offend you either. That is why i put the ps, i did not want my comments to sound like i was yelling or standing on a soap box or anything of that nature. And I do appreciate your very kind nature after seeing some of the extremely negative comments above. I am also very humbled by your wanting to pray for a complete stranger, thank you.
I just have the personal belief that god has a plan for us all. And not everyone is going to be willing or able or what ever the reason for not accepting him, it will be worked out. If He is omni benevolent i would think he could forgive even some of the most heinous of people, let alone someone who misinterpreted the bible. That’s why i think it is more important to be accepting of those that are close in belief in order to protect from those that are openly trying to destroy what we hold so dear.
Can you see why i think it is more important to embrace all Christians that teach goodness than accost one sect or another for minor differences over things like, did Jesus have blonde hair or brown? (i was being a little facetious with that one J ) Christianity as a whole is under attack, why fight amongst each other? I would think that is what Evil would want. Pit us against each other so that we are more easily subdued.
i do thank you for you patience and i know you have strong faith. That is a great think in times like these, i just hope we can get along and that Christians will not fight against Christians. i would never hate or put down another Christian because his beliefs very from mine a little. i have plenty of friends that are Roman Catholics or Mormons or Evangelical. We disagree on certain things, but we all believe Jesus died for our sins. Isn’t that really the most important part?
LikeLike
Taylor, and Melly,
If I may….
You have both been very gracious in your attitude and forbearance with each other. I believe Melanie has been very gentle, accurate, and pleasing to God with her answers.
I’d just like answer your last remark, Taylor.
The reason we, who hold the Bible to be the sole and inerrant Word of God, have problems with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Joel Osteen, and anyone who teaches unscripturally, is this:
They either add to or take away from the Holy scriptures. That makes what they teach “another gospel” and Paul, as you know, was adamantly intolerant of any thing other than the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.
We have to expose error or we become partakers of judgment for those same mistakes. (1 Timothy 5:22, Romans 16:17, 2 John 1:10-11). Joseph Smith infamously added to scripture with the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and other writings that the LDS hold in higher esteem and reverence than what we consider to be inspired scripture. The JW’s created their own translation of scripture (New World Translation) and changed key words to fit their theology rather than allowing the original scripture to form their theology! The lack of qualified scholarship in this translation is well documented.
These are grievous errors and their doctrines lead people from faith in the righteousness of Christ for salvation, to faith in personal works and merit. I am sure you will agree that none of us can earn any merit or grace as a result of our own efforts. Very simply, that is why both belief systems make door to door witnessing a mandatory requirement for their followers to fulfill. JW’s must spend many hours each week doing this or they will be considered unworthy of grace. Mormons are obligated to be missionaries for two years in order to qualify for Temple service and other levels of progress within the LDS church. I may be over-simplifying this, but it’s a basic tenet.
While the effort entailed in trying to convert others to their belief system is commendable, the driving force for that effort is their own salvation and that is just wrong. We are created for good works, which evidence to us and the world that we are in Christ, but they don’t earn us grace. We can look forward to rewards for our obedience and faithfulness, knowing that they will all be to Christ’s credit, not ours.
Osteen, on the other hand, preaches and teaches a self-serving, self-loving “gospel”, that pictures God only as a benevolent, supernatural fellow who wants you to succeed in this life. Nothing about the scandal or shame of the cross is taught. Self-love is antithetical to what Jesus called us to: self denial and self sacrificing love for others, even those who don’t deserve it.
The Catholic church makes salvation dependent on the “saving graces” of confession and the Eucharist (which can be denied a person at the whim of a priest or pope), makes the pope the head of Christ’s church instead of Christ Himself, confuses sanctification with a need for purgatory, emphasizes a practical deification of dead saints, and interposes the mother of Jesus as a confessor and intercessor…. all of which are completely unscriptural.
Again, any time the Word is replaced by or added to with what man teaches, it becomes heresy and error (Matthew 15:8-9, Matt 16:12).
God bless you Taylor, for seeking answers. I pray that I have been able to help answer some of your questions. I hope that you understand that I bear no animosity towards any of these people or groups. But, I love the truth too much to approve of their teachings by silent affirmation, when their souls and the souls of others are at stake.
LikeLike
Prodigal you made several excellent points. But, now please hear me out, they were completely unnecessary. I agree with you on almost all of them but that is not my argument. My point is not to convert anyone from what they believe or to say any one sect has the truth. In fact that is the exactly what I am trying to argue against.
Your final paragraph makes perfect sense, and could have been stated by any of the above mentioned churches. For example; The LDS Church believes that god inspired the Book of Mormon and they too love you and the truth too much to let you not hear it when your soul is at stake.
As to any deviations in the Catholic and Mormon Church. They are lead by a prophet, so modern day revelations can be had.
I just want all the denominations to stop the My God is better than Your God game. We all worship the same God. We just have a different understanding. Each sect claims to have the truth.
I can agree with you that you should not sit silently by while other churches are doing missionary work. You should be doing it as well. But I just do not want fellow Christians to speak down about other Christians as not “true” Christians. That seems like such a mistake to me. I would think the best way to do it is to share your faith and ask them to pray about it to see what the Holy Spirit tells them.
Jesus said to love what is right and hate what is evil. But he also said to conquer evil with good not evil. Doesn’t that mean something?
If I have hijacked this thread and anyone holds animosity to me because of it, I am sorry. I was just deeply hurt when I saw Christians speaking so unkind about other Christians, and I wanted to see if I could help. I hope I have, and have not hindered or hurt anyone along the way. Thank you guys for the great conversation and I hope mine has been just as pleasurable. I am glad to see people passionate about their faith. If only the whole world could have that strong of faith.
LikeLike
Taylor,
I’m glad you you brought up your honest questions. You are right, when it seems that everyone believes he or she has the truth, a person who wants to have peace just simply wants everyone to “get along”. In order for that to happen, the philosophy of postmodernism says that everything is relative, your “truth” is as good as mine. So what the postmodernist thinking asserts is that if let everyone believe what they want, we’ll all be able to get along. Now that thinking applied outside the Christian congregation allows that Islam, Christianity, Wicca, and every other religion is ok with God and we just learn to “get along”. Unfortunately, that is not what Islam wants. They are now in governmental talks to make it law that if any Muslim commits apostasy (such as being converted to Christianity, ergo “free will”) they can be punished by death. So this is a very real demonstration that “truth” is not relative. Jesus said I am the truth and the way. Meaning that there is no other in God’s view. So do you see when we start getting into the thinking pattern that “truth” is relative and everybody can have their own it does not lead to peace? It leads to division. Now here is a contrast: Jesus is the “Prince of Peace” but he said “Do you think I came to bring peace on the earth? No, but I tell you division.” (Luke 12:49-56) What did he mean by that? He meant what Prodigal was saying: You and I must love truth so much that we would be willing to lose our mother or father or brother or son or daughter instead of it. That’s how important God feels about truth. It is not relative to him. There will be peace one day Taylor, and you are blessed for wanting it: “Blessed are peacemakers for they will be Sons of God.” But the peace will be on God’s terms not ours. I believe you to be honest-hearted and you are in a place where you can preach to those ones you speak of and that it is no accident that God has placed them in your path. But the choice is yours.
God bless you,
Melanie
LikeLike
Very well said Melly!
Truth is something we can know. If not, why did Jesus promise us “Seek, and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened to you, ask, and you will receive.” ?
Or, “You shall know the truth…”? God isn’t making this a guessing game Taylor. This is a race and it’s one we have to strive to win. (1 Corinth 9:24)
Just remember that not everyone who says “I believe in Jesus” is saved! Many who think they are will be shocked to find out they were dreadfully wrong. (Matt 7:21-29) We are to judge those who err and claim to be of Christ, but are not (1 Corinth 5:12-13).
Finally, Paul says this about those who would be overseers of Christ’s flock: “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” (Titus 1:9 ESV)
I want peace and unity among fellow believers as much as anyone, but Christ told us there would be tares among the wheat and because of that we are to be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves (Matt 10:16).
God bless and guide you into all the truth!
LikeLike
Hi,
Just a thought.
Accepting or not somebody or some religion as “christian” doesn’t mean we don’t love him/her/them. Accepting a belief as “similar” or “same” as mine, mean mine can be substituted by those of the other. Think about it. Be aware of it. Allowing this to happen could mean “my Bible” (or should I say: The Bible) can be put aside in order to asume, let’s say, the book of commandments (or should I say: the book of Doctine and Covenants) is “similar” or “same” or “The Book” to follow. Is that what your Bible says about your beliefs? about Jesus? about truth? I don’t think so. If we accept every religion leads to God no matter the differences (that, by the way, are not “little” in reference to lds), then we fail in what Jesus asked of us: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Mathew 28:19-20a)
God bless you all.
P.S. You can view this videos as general information, but you should make your own research before “accepting” others as your fellow believers. http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a28653a0361e776a4873
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=e0343ae527b263a7b0ab
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=bcbccf2c7cd42d80955a
LikeLike
I just happend on this as I was looking for a talk to listen to before I went to bed. Here is part 1 of the talk part 1 of 5 of the talk he gave and hereis his explanation of what Ravi was trying to do. I don’t know if this was posted before (and my apologies if it was) but it seems to supply a satisfying explanation as to his intent.
God bless you,
Melly
LikeLike
it was said “Ravi was asked by an apparent LDS gir” Question what was he to do argue with the girl. I’m sure the LDS leaders would have stepped in and said something. I believe He was right in avoiding the question at that time.. their is a time and place for things
LikeLike
Here is an update on Ravi and the national day of prayer
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3417/By_Ingrid_Schlueter
LikeLike
Here is you a youtube about the issue concerning Ravi
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/the-ecumenical-national-day-of-prayer/
LikeLike
Arm chair quarterbacking can be fun, but I would simply ask you all to walk a mile in his shoes. He’s living it–on the front lines–day in, day out–in incredibly difficult circumstances. And he is doing it fearlessly and with great wisdom. I would venture to say that he has done more to advance the cause of Christ worldwide than most of us can even imagine. What are we doing? He’s out there doing our dirty work so that we can all sit around, nit pick, and have these safe, esoteric discussions. I, for one, fall way, way short of the mark. And I thank God for raising men like Pastor Zacharias. They are rare. If you have a problem with Mormonism, then I think you’ve found your ministry–get cracking. If you believe Pastor Zacharias has failed in that mission, then you certainly have God’s permission to improve upon it. I’m sure he would appreciate the help.
LikeLike
Another update about the National day of prayer…
This from slice on the 1 May
Then Ravi decided not to pray in the name of Jesus at this event…
This from slice on the 2 May…
LikeLike
I just watched Amistad the film on DVD last night. And I was struck by how many issues that film dealt with are we still dealing with today. How do you open your country’s arms wide and accept all those mentioned in Emma Lazarus’ poem and still maintain those basic tenents upon which this country were founded. What if you feel badly at their treatment and what to make some sort of recompense? What if you compromised what you beleived in to make right the mistakes of those who claimed to be just like you? That’s one viewpoint and an honest one but not completely in harmony with Jesus.
Then there is the viewpoint of not being citizens of this world but of the Kingdom to come. This one that understands that faith and history are inextricably bound. That “chonological snobbery” is not to be believed or practiced. That to follow Christ is to understand that you follow one who is full of paradox and that paradox is the only way to fully grasp the truth. That truth does not change, we do.
Then there is the ground over which living in the world though not part of that world is the viewpoint one must travel. How do we always take the right step? Especially in a country that is tearing itself apart further by trying to mend itself to its own way of thinking. When Malcolm Muggeridge said that “there is no new news only old news happening to new people”, he gave us a context as Christians to explain what C. S. Lewis meant when he used the term “Chronological snobbery”.
These thoughts came to me as I reflected on the film Amistad. How do you do right to a foreign people with different religion whom your country of proported Christian belief has wronged? How do you make that up to them without compromising your faith and the truth? We have had examples. And they are right there in the Bible and Malcolm Muggeridge was right. But we are not doing that as a whole, as a country. That is not to say that individual Christians are not carrying out our Father’s will more closely, they are. But on the whole, the US and those living in the US, many of whom claim to be “Christian”, have gotten themselves into a pickle by relying more on themselves to gain peace than on the God for whom our early forefathers claimed to serve. As a result, whether this contingint realizes it or not, they have taken their eyes off the prize: the real Kingdom, and are trying to build their version of the “kingdom of God on earth” just as the Jewish zealots hoped Jesus’ coming would do for them in their day. Of that contingint, there are more flavors in the soup that I will not cover here due to lack of space and consideration. But within this cacaphonic climate, our preachers and pastors, who know the accurate truth and are trying, I believe, to tell it with sincerity are faced with horrendous choices everyday. The discipline they are enduring publically, in the midst of overwhelmng pressures to speak where the need is greatest and their own struggles with common sin must be beyond words. What is in their minds is only between them and God for a time. But the honest man or woman of God will eventually come forward as did both Peter and Paul and say what was in their heart, not to expiate themselves, but lead the flock carefully out of love which God has placed in their care. There is not a leader in the Bible that did not make a misstep. Not one. And it takes a lot of them, without repentence, for God to remove the annointing of a proven leader. I liken it to the submission a wife is under with her husband. Who of us could take on that role more successfully than those God has already obviously put his spirit of teaching upon? As the scriptures remind us, these are under a heavier judgement, so it recommends: “not many of you should be teachers.” (James 3:1) This is not an enviable position to be in but it is a calling. We are living in some of the most difficult of all Christian time periods, the period where every move is crucial. The tea cup is sitting on the edge of the table. Scrutiny will be unbearable. Who but the truly arrogant or the truly called will be in the public eye as teachers under that kind of scrutiny? In one week the mainstream news has covered one man very publicallly, the Internet has covered the other. What does God have to say about both? What do faith and history tell us of what has happend to such men in the past? There is part of our direction. The other part is in prayer and the leading of the Holy Sprit. Of misstep or outright sin, I do not have what is in the man’s heart. I only have his complex actions which tell me there was some confusion and misunderstanding somewhere. And that is the problem we are all being faced with in this pluralistic, relativistic society: learning to operate within the paradox of truth that Jesus taught us. When to advance, when to keep quiet, when to speak boldly, when to do this or that and do it all under scrutiny, under test, under speed of the pace of our lives and do it perfectly in harmony with the Holy Spirit at all times. Have any of us done that this week? I know I haven’t. But I know I have done the best I could, even if sloppily, from God’s perfect standard. I say “sloppily” because its the best word I can find at the moment to describe how far off the mark I feel I must be from God’s holiness. I am grateful for His love in covering over my sloppy lopsided cake baking efforts at living the Christian life. On my best day that must be what it really looks like.
Again, I am going to imagine what I would be doing in such a setting as the National Day of Prayer. I received an email and due to being sick did not have the energy to go onto the Internet and get involved at their web site on top of the other spiritual things needing my attention and the work I needed to do. I made a choice. I, though, would have thought that I could have prayed as I always do, but been overwhelmed by the growing tidal wave of daring chests shoved forward in my face of those whom this country has opened its arms to but who now are trying to dictate how I openly express my own faith, a faith upon which this country has documented proof it was founded. These are difficult sands of time upon which to stand. Judgment is rampant. Discernment is getting more difficult. And avoiding contraversy, being peacable with all men, may have passed since it is getting to a time when it may not depend on us anymore to do that. That is always a difficult moment to discern. Now is the time to reach out and make sure we make it as a brotherhood into the “ark”. What am I trying to say? I am trying to convey a mental picture of us all on trial and no one stands with any position or title, just as brothers and sisters whom we love and serve our Lord with shoulder to shoulder in the spiritual war as soldiers of Christ. Soldiers with honor cover each other in the battlefield, they go back for the wounded, even the fallen. They do what it takes for the troops to come back together and they follow their leader into enemy territory. Their commander doesn’t always make the “right” decisions 100% of the time. But they still obey. This is a lesson in submission all must learn. So what can be done?
Let us encourage one another, indeed, I would suggest that we write, if our hearts and the Holy Spirit agrees to impel us to, letters of encouragment to our leaders, rather than to condemn them (which I am not suggesting that we are doing here in this open discussion). I am saying that I am trying to mentally place myself under the same scrutiny and what I would hope would be there for me if I was.
This hasn’t said as best as I wanted to say it, but its the best I can do for now. I hope someone can say it better than I can.
God bless you all,
Melly
LikeLike
livingjourney:
When was the last time you witnessed to someone? If you have enough time to criticize someone who’s working so hard for God, someone who is SO much more than the average Christians, I would think you’d have more than enough time to use your knowledge and wisdom to share God’s salvation with your neighbors, co-works and family members who are not believers. Although, if you’re this critical of Ravi, I’m sure you’re just as critical of them and they probably don’t want to hear what you’ve said… I know I’m being harsh, but not anymore than your “red flag.”
Didn’t the Pharisees criticize Jesus for eating with the sinners too? How is this any different?
Alicia
LikeLike
Pingback: Omitting the Name above all Names in prayer - Is that biblical? « Living Journey
Ravi cannot explain it because whatever he says will upset a portion of the greater “Christian” community. What he says is his opinion, not the fact of the matter, and no one can deny this. It is a tough job trying to make sense of the bible, good of Ravi to take up the cup, yet I understand completely why he may stumble over words and explainations. The bible is the truth? Then there is one meaning to the words within – why then does no one know? Why then do we all disagree with each others understanding? It is all subjective. Eventually we say to ourselves: ‘God is so great that no one can understand him’ and this is where we’re left. So when the doubts and logical reasoning enters your mind straight from the arms of Satan, say to yourself; ‘God is so great, I can’t understand him’ and then, my friend, you’ll be fine.
LikeLike
Pingback: Just to let you googlers know… Rethink has been postponed! « Living Journey