Ravi Zacharias - is he becoming questionable?
I love Ravi Zacharias, I have read four of his books and I receive his newsletters on a regular basis. But I have to admit that over the last year his newsletters were sounding a little off beat. Something I couldn’t quite put my finger on.
But one day I received a newsletter that spoke about how Ravi had gone to ‘The Church of Latter Day Saints‘ to speak. Moriel has also documented this about this event:
Eye witnesses reported that Ravi’s message was unsettling in many way to the Mormon leaders, yet the Desert News stated that, “ While he {Ravi} acknowledged that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ in many of their views from historic Christianity, he emphasized much of what they share in reverence for a being both consider the divine Savior of mankind.”
Christians and Mormons share a “reverence for a being both consider the divine Savior of mankind”? The Mormons have a different Jesus! True Christians do not revere the Jesus of Mormons who is the ½ brother of Lucifer.
It seems during one Q & A session held after the Tabernacle event, Ravi was asked by an apparent LDS girl to state what exactly the differences are concerning the Trinity; Ravi declined by claiming he was a guest. He went on to affirm there are deep differences, and then simply talked about how we are to dialogue respectfully between the two faiths. I can’t imagine Jesus or Paul leaving a person seeking the Truth in error.
Since reading that in a newsletter, I have had some concerns about the direction that Zacharias was heading. I left it on the back burner but hadn’t addressed it until now.
Now it appears my concerns are becoming a little more justified as Lighthouse has posted on some more rather disturbing news.
On Ravi’s own web-site he has included some questionable authors who endorse mystic new-age practices.
- Jill Carattini Among her favorite thinkers are Malcolm Muggeridge, Henri Nouwen, and many of the early church pilgrims, though the writings of C.S. Lewis have been most formative in her own thought and writing.
- Danielle DuRant (Danielle speaks of Richard J Foster from RENOVARE about his book Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home, he also has his own bible translation called ‘The Spiritual Formation Bible‘) Richard J. Foster writes that God longs for us “to come home to where we belong, to come home to that for which we were created.” He describes God’s love for us in a series of memorable rooms that He invites us into: “the dining room of his strength, where we can feast to our heart’s delight… the study of his wisdom, where we can learn and grow and stretch…and ask all the questions we want…the bedroom of his rest, where new peace is found….”
These so called ‘series of memorable rooms‘ (DuRant’s article is called ‘Places in the Heart’) are beginning to sound a little too like the interior castle that I have posted about before! This may be a bit of jump, but I am sure with time all will become apparent.
Anyway, I am going to flag him and this whole places in the heart thing… Let’s see where this goes!!!
Related Articles:
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Can Christians and Mormons Stand Together? by Mike Oppenheimer
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Seven Mansions by Carla from More Books and Things
Hmmm…I’m not too sure…but, do you understand how some kinds of syncretistic groups–like the Latter Day Saints–change from sycretism to orthodoxy? Or, are you aware that there a number of these groups that have changed? What if God wanted to do something to the Latter Day Saints like what happened with the World-Wide Church of God some years back? Wouldn’t it take some contacts between those groups and orthodox Christians? Maybe God was using Ravi Zacharias for just such a contact….and, maybe Ravi understands how to be filled with grace under pressure and not create offense while at the same time speaking to the truth…I wonder if that could happen?
Oh no, not Ravi! I hope what thefishspeaks says is more what’s going on. But, as you say, we must keep a sharp eye out.
sigh,
Melissa
thefishspeaks: While I understand what you are saying I tend to side with Vee. I think her point is that this is not just one instance but one in many instances where Zacharias may be crossing the line.
What if satan is using Ravi to persuade other Christians that being a Mormon is an acceptable way to God? He would not be the first one to lead others down a deceptive path just because he has an influencial name in the Christian world. I think we need to be very careful what any of our leaders our teaching us regardless of who they are, and what they have taught in the past. Everything we read and hear needs to be filtered through God’s word. On another note, I find it intersting when you mention those interior rooms, and the interior castle. That sounds almost exactly what brad Jersak is teaching about finding your secret meeting place with God. Same basic principle packaged a new way.
Yes Chris, that was my point.
I think as things progress — or should I say digress — they will become more evident as time goes on. In the meantime I think we should pray for Ravi.
Dawn you make some very valid points. We should indeed check everything teachers say with the Word of God. Paul said for us to do that.
I don’t know much about Jersak at all.
Nothing new under the sun is there Dawn.
Thanks for commenting people.
It is the facts that matter, not the nature, office or ministry of a person who speaks, in this instance Ravi Z.
The facts are undeniable. Mormonism is pagan heresy. Its christ is not the Biblical Christ
i dont think Ravi is becoming questionable!!
1) Meeting with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints –>
Firstaly- I dont see anything wrong that has happened…Firstly I say he was smart and was trying to put in 1 point of similarity between faith of mormons and christians so that he can proceed in his message that God put in Him…
Secondly in regard to the LDS girl’s question,i say he was smart in saying he was a guest and keeping quiet….If a Muslim/Hindu friend were to invite me to his house,it would be really foolish and stupid if i cite all their wrong beliefs and blast them at the first meeting itself…comparing that situation with “what Jesus or Paul would do” is like comparing Apples and green peas ..
Last but not the LEAST-the above article is not “first hand info”..
I need to hear/see his message first hand to comment on his beliefs/views and i am sure he does not commend Mormon beliefs
2) questionable authors in his website..
RZIM is an international organisation with members from all around the world fom different backgrounds/cultures/denomenations etc..
In my local church itself there are people who have varied views on some small doctrines and practices of Christians..So if we randomly pickedthe belief of Mr.X from my church,it need not reflect the belief of our church elders or also it need not be the church stance !!
Mormons need to hear the true gospel! They need to know who Jesus really is and to know that Jesus is not Satan’s brother.
Living Journey,
I agree with you. The true gospel is not even remotely like Mormonism and to find areas of similarity I think are pointless.
I had a friend that went to a mormon church one time just for giggles really when he was touring the west coast, and he stood up in the
middle of the service and said Joseph Smith was a fraud. They through him out ofcourse. What was the point? I have no idea - he was just being onery. But I think that’s the point. You can’t find the least common denominator between christianity and a cult and expect people to be pulled from spiritual darkness. Ravi needs to give the Holy Spirit room to do his job. He can’t convict if all you give is a watered down version.
Mary you made a very good point.
Unfortunately there is a watered down gospel that is being preached by some very influencial teachers today as well. It is certainly not the gospel of the kingdom but a social one that has been made politically correct.
Thanks for commenting.
Some plant, some water… but God makes it grow…
Why do we think we are to always give the WHOLE gospel all the time?
I think Ravi used respect and wisdom and will most likely be invited again… and again… and each time plant and water… and watch God grow what HE WILL.
We often accuse without all the facts… we often toss to the curb those we deem “fallen”… in all that God seems to still be in charge and doing His good and perfect will… and we are often oblivious to it.
Be careful not to judge to hastily on things.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Oh, I noticed one of my favorite teachers is on your “Christianity” list… I guess you did forgive his adulterous affair with the member of his congregation?
It seems being kind to Mormons is more a sin than adultery? Strange world we live in isn’t it? Especially since that person never did go through any “restoration” but really told all to mind their own business…
Blessings,
iggy
I stand by the statement written by Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries regarding David Hocking
And here are two articles addressing the concerns about Ravi:
Christians and The Church Of Latter Day Saints by David E Lister
Can Christians and Mormons Stand Together? by Mike Oppenheimer
Certainly both men should be in our prayers. Like I said at the beginning of this post, I really do love Ravi, but I am a little unsure as to the direction he may be heading. I hope my concerns are proven wrong. I will continue to pray for them.
Blessings
Vee
Note: Here is a link to an article called “The Mormon Church, The Deity of Christ Phillipians 2:5-6”
A good read to understand the differences between Mormonism and Christianity.
Also here is another article:
Are Mormons Christians? — A Beliefnet.com Debate
I stumbled across your article “Ravi Zacharias: Is he becoming questionable”…
Ravi Zacharias and his colleagues routinely quote many sources, but quoting someone does not necessarily mean they endorse all the views of that person. For example, Ravi often quotes Nietzsche, but is quite clear about the problems with his philosophy. On the positive end, he quotes people like Will Durant, who was not a Christian, highlighting what was correct in what they said - but this does not amount to a full endorsement of that person. I do not think you are justified in giving Ravi Zacharias and his colleagues a red flag for quoting Henry Neuwen or anyone else, unless they specifically quoted something completely unorthodox in a supportive way. Also, looking to the first part of your post, you refer to his invitation to speak at the Mormon temple. Ravi Zacharias has always been extremely bold in pointing out heresies. He has also been extremely polite and respectful on invitations. He never supported the Mormon church, only encouraged exploration of the similarities and differences between Mormonism and Christianity. This encouragement was so that those believing the falsehoods could come to a knowledge of the truth. I think he has been clear about this directive throughout his ministry. Politeness does not equal approval.
Thanks for listening to me here. Keep up the watch. God bless.
In his radio show Just Thinking, about 6 months ago, he told a story about a meeting he had with a rather influencial Palestinian leade (I dont remember who). He told how he used the fact the both Christians and Muslims have a similar account of the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son. He used this as a point of comon ground to share the gospel with him.
Again Ravi never endorced another faith’s viewpoint, he merely used it as a vehicle to convey the truth.
I would also like to point out that he is in the leadership of the book Kingdom of the Cults, which is a well respected book which is helpful apologetically in clarifiying differences and similarities between christianity and cults like islam and lds.
What exactly was that truth conveyed by Ravi? Was it the very exclusive statement Christ Jesus from the canonised bible said of Himself … I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me?
Was there a line drawn in the sand?
“If I have all manner of understanding and can fathom all mysteries, yet have not love, I am nothing.”
Love. Love for those within the LDS church. Love for those Mormons who are genuinely seeking to please God and who God is constantly calling to his heart.
He desires worshipers who worship in spirit and in truth, and it’s not always a direct route to get there. Love, however, alters paths and leads home. Ravi is showing that kind of love, and with it goes that kind of patience. In transplanting a living plant from one garden to another, you do not just rip a shrub out by its roots if you want it to survive. Care and patience and gentility are required.
Give Ravi a little credit for how faithfully he has walked, and trust the God he serves to use him to deliver love in the way he is led. Either that or take up that cross and do the work yourself. Just don’t sit on the bench and criticize the guys out there giving all that they have to glorify God and love his people.
Love. Without that, the fight means nothing.
-Brian
We should always look towards the bible to see if we can find an example, a biblical principle of evangelism and Paul shows us a perfect example of how to evangelise to the lost, this is found in Acts. When he went to Athens he did speak to them about their unknown god and told them it was nothing more than a worthless idol, and he did speak to them that even their own poets have spoken about a concept of being a child of God.
But he did differentiate and was very clear when it came to the living God. He also was sure to say that at one time God overlooked their ignorance, but now that time has passed and repentance is needed to get right with God. Why has that time passed? Because we are this side of the cross! He was also willing to be a laughing stock because of the Truth.
This is not hate, but this example shows perfectly the love of God through Paul who explained to them the whole council of God (This is very important because Ravi or anyone for that matter does not know when Christ is coming back, or when we are leaving this world by death, Paul was obviously an opportunist in Athens, and if given the opportunity to share the gospel it should be taken, just as Paul did in Athens) by preaching to them the gospel, which included an understanding of repentance and the knowledge of the Son of God and what happened at Calvary concerning the power of the cross. Which of course now stands empty with the Son of God at the right hand of the Father.
Act 17:21- 34 Now all the Athenians and the foreigners living there used to spend their time in nothing else than repeating or listening to the latest ideas. So Paul stood up in front of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in every way. For as I was walking around and looking closely at the objects you worship, I even found an altar with this written on it: ‘To an unknown god.’ So I am telling you about the unknown object you worship. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth. He doesn’t live in shrines made by human hands, and He isn’t served by hands as if He needed anything. He himself gives everyone life, breath, and everything. From one man He made every nation of humanity to live all over the earth, fixing the seasons of the year and the boundaries they live in, so that they might look for God, somehow reach for him, and find him. Of course, he is never far from any one of us. For we live, move, and exist because of him, as some of your own poets have said: ‘For we are his children, too.’ So if we are God’s children, we shouldn’t think that the divine being is like gold, silver, or stone, or is an image carved by human imagination and Though God has overlooked those times of ignorance, He for He has set a day when He is going to judge the world with justice through a Man He has appointed, and He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.” When they heard about a resurrection of the dead, some began joking about it, while others said, “We will hear you again about this.” And so Paul left the meeting. Some men joined him and became believers. With them were Dionysius, who was a member of the Areopagus, a woman named Damaris, and some others along with them.
Is this what Ravi did?
And by the way, currently my brother who is a Christian is seeing a Mormon girl, and he has spoken with her in love but been very clear (without any doubt at all) about the differences between Mormonism and Christianity, in saying that Mormonism is diametrically opposite from biblical Christianity. Logically they would have to agree with this. Why??? Because from the conversations I have had recently about this very thing, and from their own literature, Mormons don’t even think that the bible is God’s given Word, they believe in the book of Mormon over the bible. Of course they are not Christians, it is impossible that they could be. Don’t forget that being Christian does not mean that you are just a good person with good values. That being said, they are unsaved souls, just as those who lived in Athens during Paul’s ministry.
Did Ravi preach like Paul when given the perfect opportunity to do so… did he evangelise using the whole council of God, that being the gospel, because they are unsaved souls?
One opportunity arose when someone seeking God’s Truth asked Ravi a question. A lot what said, but very important things were left unsaid…
during one Q & A session held after the Tabernacle event, Ravi was asked by an apparent LDS girl to state what exactly the differences are concerning the Trinity; Ravi declined by claiming he was a guest.
For anyone who is familiar with Ravi’s ministry, you know for a fact that Ravi doesn’t endorse Mormonism as Christianity. And he is very clear in describing the uniqueness of Christ in comparison to other worldviews regarding religion as a whole or those claiming to be “Christians” yet deny what Christ taught. I am a firm believer in “testing the spirits” and bringing all that we hear and read into the Light of God’s Word for a foundation of truth; but, we have to be responsible in our responding. For example, (and this is to all of us, not any one individaul) have you/I watched/listened to Ravi’s message and teachings at the Utah event? If not, you need too before you speak or you’re being irresponsible. Hearsay and third-party stories do not always provide accurate interpretations, no matter how pure or zealous one may be, which I do not doubt in the printing of this article was the motivation. There is no Biblical fault in Ravi accepting an invitation to speak at the Mormon event. Look at Paul in the book of Acts to see that principle; and in looking further into Paul’s response at Mar’s Hill in Athens you similar parallels in Ravi’s address to the Mormons. He did not deny the exclusivity of the Lordship of Christ nor did he call Mormons his Chrisian brothers. I understand the concern of Ravi being silent on certain issues, but it would difficult and possibly unfruitful to try and address every difference between the religions. Sometimes silence is not always sinful. There are many examples of Jesus in the gospel saying things that turned people away and left them questioning. Ravi’s ministry has produced enough fruit, good fruit, that there has to be some level of trust between us in the body that what he said was what God led him to say. Ravi did not deny any of the essential elements of the Christian faith, nor accept any false statements of Christ as valid. Finding common ground with a lost world is imperative in apologetics and evangelism. Paul understood the philosophies and cultures of his day and used that knowledge to speak of Christ. Ravi does the same and in many cases in places where he is not welcome or admonished, but sometimes quite the opposite, such as any of our secular colleges in the Unites States (ie Harvard). In regards to others he or his staff at RZIM may quote who may not be fully trusted as Christian teachers, let us be careful the context into which we place there importance. Ravi quotes Nichietze and Kant at times, but obviously does not support there worldview. A wise man can receive truth of any kind and place it in its proper context. And as with any large organization, one individual like Ravi, cannot possibly read every thing everyone else may print. I don’t say that as a justification for anything that is unBiblical, but it’s a reality that affects every organiztion no matter how “Christian”. That is why we must pray for our leaders and those who represent the body, and if it calls for it, write them a letter of concern and pray God’s will be done. I applaud and pray for myself and the Body as a whole that we all would be diligent in knowing who to trust and who is deceptively deceiving. And for those who stand opposed to God’s truth as revealed in His Word, may we not be silent. But let us be holy in our research before we publicly criticize those of our own household.
Thank you, Brian and Terrell. We must meditate so as to know how to give an answer as the scriptures wiesly counsel. We are also told not to unduly call out or chasten an older brother without firm proof. Over time, Ravi and his team have given a consistant witness of the truth of Jesus Christ and no other. He and his team have endeavored to stay central to the gospel and preach in some of the most difficult and hostile of territories: academic and spiritual “lion’s dens” is what I would characterize them as. And yet, one can tell that God’s spirit is with them in the calm and reasonablness (which we are also told to do when giving an answer from the scriptures) is with them. If indeed Dr. Zacharias made an error in judgement, he would be in accepted company for even Moses made an error in leadership judgement at the waters of Meribah. He was disciplined by God but by no means forsaken. I’m not saying that Dr. Zacharias did make an error, but I am saying that we need to exercise caution that none of us make ourselves a “Miriam” in unduly criticizing one of our christian leaders without letting the Holy Spirit expressly make it clear that they have clearly committed apostasy. And for the record, apostasy is solely denying the Christ. And that was not done here by Dr. Zacharias by a long shot. Please keep in mind that our God does not wish anyone evil to die but that he repent and get saved. We are all instructed to teach with mildness those not favorably disposed and that is what he was doing. He is not perfect. He learns right along with us. Yes, keep him in your prayers. The whole team. But let us do so with love and not condemnation. Trust God. Stand firm. Be generous. Remember that teachers by virtue of the gift God gives them will receive a heavier judgement. Learn to appeal to people: be reconciled to God. Entreat older men as Fathers. God is watching how we treat them too.
As it so happen, Dwight L. Moody also spoke to the LDS in 1871 - do you also question his motives? A Christian gives the message of God to anyone willing to listen in the hopes that some will hear and be saved.
Here is an on going dialogue if anyone is interested in hearing from people who actually went to the event and their perspective.
We should all continue to pray!
Vee
The following is part of the dialogue. And there is more written about this event at Mormon info.
Ravi Zacharias at the Mormon Tabernacle (11/15/04)
Not sure what is going on here… anyone with any information on this ???
Oh, and here is another site with letters to Ravi and other news about the evangelical/mormon dialogue.
Vee,
Thank you for posting the link to the comprehensive listing of other links about letters to Dr. Zacharias and the witness to Mormons activity. I was immediately struck by this portion of one of the letters to Dr. Zacharias which I will in part quote here: ” I appreciate the work that many in the counter-cult have done over the years in helping the church to define and defend her theological boundaries. The Scriptures surely teach us that we must understand what we believe and why we believe it, and that when necessary, we must defend the faith delivered to the saints. However, in my view, and the view of a growing number of evangelicals internationally, the counter-cult method of heresy refutation results in an unnecessarily confrontational approach that builds more fences between evangelicals and those in new religions than it builds bridges. I fear that we have taken a handful of biblical texts that warn of false teaching *within* the church, and have used them inappropriately as a foundation for evangelism to alternative spirituality adherents outside the church. The church might be better served in the future by re-examining not only our attitudes, but also the Scriptures in order to recover a winsome, dialogical, and culturally-sensitive approach as modeled in a number of biblical texts (e.g., the Samaritan woman in John 4; Paul among the Pagan philisophers in Acts 17)” The example of the Samaritan woman came to mind *before* I even opended this site to read its contents. I think it would do well for us to remember it. Jesus was even asked by that woman, why he was even talking to her! Note that she reconized him. She knew what he taught and she knew about the social and religious prohibitions between them as Jew and Samaritan. (recall Jesus parable of the good Samariton, too, please, because I am going to use this to set up a reason for why dialog is *not* acceptance) To which Jesus replied as we all know: “If you knew the gift of God and who it is who asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” Note that some people are drinking from a “fountain” but its not “living water”. Note also that she does not even know what to ask for: her mindset is not even to that point. This is important. If Jesus had approached her on the level that she was a heretic, rather than appealing to combination of her need and her heart and mind, she would not have been open to what he had to say. That she was a heretic to the Jews goes without saying. Even she “grasped” that the Jews thought that she was. So that is a “dead end”. Without compromising his hostess’s hospitality to him, Jesus gets her attention by just first talking with her. (a fact that astounds her!) Then later when he has gained her trust and she willingly conceeds (on her own!), he tells her kindly: “You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. ” (John 4:22) Do you see how he has led her from one deeply embedded idea (hers) to the truth? And has done so without confrontation, painlessly and effectively? He strings together his loving logic in such a way that her heart is touched before ever her ego is offended. These are the hands of a deft spiritual surgeon! O, that all of us could be as brave, insightful, and tender as well! Should the church be protected from heretical teachings? Most assuredly! But we also need to remember from the “pigstys” of moral and spiritual corruption, the Master came and lovingly removed us. I can tell you in truth that God has future loving servants “hidden” in many places that you and I would never dream they might be. No one is beyond His reach. And His ways of reaching them may seem unconventional to our physical eyes, so let us pray for spiritual understanding, all the while being on guard to defend the truth. We live in difficult times. Dr. Zacharias went to the Tabernacle to speak once. Let us be guardful but also respectful, loving and patient and see what develops from this. We may be very surprised at what God will do with it. As for Dr. Zacharias, let us continue to keep him in our prayers for strength, guidance, and humility from the Lord, and stop speaking against him from this point. I recall that even Paul faced many trials in his ministry and was not always supported by the brothers….yet this served to help keep him from pride. No true servant of God, though such a process is painful, will be ungrateful for it.
wow, i am shocked… here, the whole time i have thought the mormons were being judgemental by saying they were the only church with the whole truth, but listening to you people on here i am wondering what your churches/fellowships/friends/pastors are teaching you? satan is using ravi to preach mormonism is ok? wow! why dont you just say that the lds church is a satanic cult? oh wait… you did
i really hove no problem with a church that teaches…
good moral values
good family values
belief in god
just to name a few…
did jesus to love our neighbors as ourselves? in fact wasnt that one of the only two commandments he left? saying moses’ law was fulfiled and that love god and love your neighbor was all you have to do? well you sure do show your love for you fellow neighbor on this board.
Hi Taylor,
You ask some very good questions. They are deep ones and on the minds of many these days. The word “judgment” has gotten a very bad connotation these days but not from God’s standpoint. And if you will allow me to focus a bit on that, I think it will help us clear up what I think may be a misunderstanding that has developed or is starting to. Your statement: “I have no problem with a church that teaches…” That indicates that you have certain criteria that you measure a church by so that you can make a judgement as to whether you like or dislike that church, correct? And that your criteria are: “good moral values, good family values, belief in God.” So in effect you are saying that any church that doesn’t promote those particular values, you would judge so as to have a problem with it. So in essence, no matter what you and I do in this world, we are going to have to make some decisions that fall into the category of judging something as good or bad, aren’t we? Why? Because we all have an internal code or system, whether it is put there or adopted, that we measure things by and make determinations. None of us can get around that.
Let’s look at those values you mention, first, moral and family values. Those most agree are good values and they do support a safe and stable life. Even people who claim not to believe in God will say that they support good moral anf family values. How about belief in God? Implicitly, that involves a specific person and His wants and desires, His dislikes and His prohibitions. We may say we beleive in God and think this is a complete statement. Yet the Apostle Paul points out the incomplete nature of that statement that can catch us off guard when he says in James 2:19: “…that even the demons believe and shudder.” So he’s saying quite plainly that this was a problem for the first century chrisitians as it is for us today. There has to be involved than just believing; we must accompany certain knowledge and actions in accord with that belief. Jesus said to the Samariton woman: “You worship what you don’t know. We worship what we know because salvation originated with the Jews.” Even in Jesus’ day there were cults and religions claiming many things but they did not all have the truth. In a very kind way and recognizing her inner desire for truth (the living water). Jesus sets things straight with this woman who had grown up in one of those “cults”. He uses a water illustration. She had to come there every day to get this water that would keep her alive for yet another day and it was tiresome. What, he asks her, if I can give you some water so that you will never be thirsty again? And the result was that she was able to see what Jesus was truly talking about. He makes things clear to her from God’s point of view, and not her earthly point of view. That is the main thing: to see what Jesus is really talking about. And it is so important that we do this because our very lives and those that hear us preach depend on it. (Colosians 1:9) In other words, things that make our lives better here are good, but spiritual things from God’s viewpoint are even better. That is a trust that we must guard because it does mean our everlasting life and those who hear us. That is what it means to love others. Part of real love is that it protects others. ” Love always protects.” (1 Cor 13) And that is what the people on this board are aiming to do. We could all stand to learn more kindness, and to always let our replies “be seasoned with salt”. So, please forgive me, I apologize if I didn’t say what I was trying to say in the right way. But I hope I got a little better at it with this try. God bless you,
Melanie
P.S. I need to correct myself: I said Paul when I meant James in the following paragraph: Yet the Apostle Jame points out the incomplete nature of that statement that can catch us off guard when he says in James 2:19: “…that even the demons believe and shudder.” So he’s saying quite plainly that this was a problem for the first century chrisitians as it is for us today. There has to be more involved than just believing; we must accompany certain knowledge and actions in accord with that belief.
Let’s not get into a whole philosophical debate about the definition of Judging. Can I make the assumption most Christians understand the difference between knowing right and wrong and being judgmental and condemnation? If I can make that assumption then why is it so hard to accept a religion that teaches very similar beliefs? They may not be the same, but… I’m wasting my time aren’t I? If some people are so full of hate that they can not look beyond the little, and yes I mean little, differences in the different christen sects, why limit it to Mormons? Why not accost the Catholics or Baptists or Lutherans?
I still do not understand the animosity towards the Mormon Church from other Christians. It reminds me of the animosity from the Jews to the early Christians.
And are you comparing the Mormon Church to the demons? I really do not get it. It’s sad to me. We can not get past this my god is better than your god.
Hi Taylor,
I agree that we can find common ground on many aspects of what is considered right and wrong, and being judgemental and condemnatory. Even those who don’t believe in God can often come to an agreement on some of those points because it is evidenced in a country’s civil laws. There is an image of God still remaining in us that allows that to happen. Now considering a thing being similar and the same cannot be on an equal platform. I may have a red felt fedora and you may have a red brimmed panama, Both are red. Both are hats…but they are not the same, are they? As to Mormons and Christians, yes, there are key philosophical differences stemming from a subscription to a different canon apart from and in addition to the Bible. I think that is something we all understand.
I want to make clear that I do not hate Mormons and I am a Christian. Nor have I used that term here. I don’t believe any of the Christian friends that I know hate Mormons either. Where we diverge, at least, in this current discussion (and hopefully we can clear this away), is what is meant by the term “hate” and why does it come up in a discussion where viewpoint diverge? I may say “I hate okra” but it doesn’t mean that I am gong to find some means of doing it harm. I bear it no animosity at all! I don’t really “hate” okra. What I mean is that I don’t like the taste of it or the texture.
Now the Bible does use the term “Hate” in a couple of scriptures as meaning “loving something less” than Jesus (Luke 12:9) and in another, as meaning placing a prohibition on what is a bad practice or unscriptural belief (Romans 12:9) in order that we can obey God as He asked us to do. In other words, Form of worship is very important to God. In the early days their were false prophets and true just as there are in our day. We are told to separate ourselves from such false prophets in a very strongly worded language throughout the Bible. I would think that any one who loved God devotedly would take those admonitions seriously since they have serious consequences. A good rule for all of us to consider when we are choosing our church is this: “Aim for unity in truth and form that doesn’t violate the substance of God’s Word.” -R.Z. So can we start by asking ourselves some worthy questions as we pray for God’s direction on the matter of how we worship and where: Does it look after widows and orphans and help us to keep ourselves without spot from the world? (James 1:26, 27) Does it add or take away from God’s word? (Rev. 22:1
If so, then we need to put away anything in our heart that is preventing us from seeing things God’s way.
Am I comparing the Mormon Church to the demons? No, I am not. But I would ask how you would interpret this scripture in light of what you believe: (1 Timothy 4:1) How would you give an answer to that?
You raise another good question about denominations and it does go back to the concept of not violating the substance of God’’s word. Do these denominations you mention aim for a unity of truth that doesn’t violate God’s word? That is the question we need to ask ourselves. While this is not openly part of the discussion, it is still implied, the unity of the church should be a concern to any devoted Christian. God has expressly asked through His word that there “..not be any divisions amongst you but that you be fitly united.” ( 1 Cor. 1: 1-3) No one will disagree that God’s servants should be unified and reconciled to Him and the church is not currently doing that. But on what basis should that be done? The Cross is the one place where we must all go for salvation, right? So we can agree on that? But where to next? Most Christian churches have one thing thing that they have held in common down through the ages and that is a common creed. And this creed centers around the universal church, which is understood when most Christians use the word “church” or as cited in the creed “One holy apostolic catholic church”. The “catholic” simply means “universal” in that sense and is not to be confused with the denomination “Roman Catholic Church”. That creed holds all the basic points of doctrine based exclusively on God’s Word, the Bible and common to the denominations you mention and a few other mainstream protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox denominations. If I understand that you see some unity in the denominations represented on this board and this ones you mention, then hopefully that is a good thing and it will only grow deeper to God’s glory. I hope that answers your question.
God bless you,
Melanie
it is funny you brought up Romans 12:9 i am reading the new testament again and just read Romans 12 and 13 this week
anyway yes i did think of that as right before you mentioned it, and i agree the bible says you should “hate” what is evil… but now should i consider any denomination apart from the denomination i follow evil? Or is that referring to something different. I personally believe he wasn’t referring to the different denominations that He knew would come to be, but referring to the openly Anti-Christian organizations that have come to be and are all around us.
As far as 1 Timothy 4:1, if i looked at it the way some other people do then any church that “departs” from what Jesus originally taught could be considered doctrines of devils. but none of us will really know exactly, word for word what he taught, so all the current denominations are docterins of devils. How many times has the bible each of us use been translated? if it isnt the actual Aramaic word for word transcript of what Jesus said, then technically, according to that reasoning, we are departing from the faith right? I don’t think that’s what it means, I think He is way more understanding than that. I think it refers to the new age spirituality stuff… the look inside yourself to find your own inner god type stuff. That’s the type of stuff I think is “giving heed to seducing spirits.” And “departed from the faith.”
Yes I hope all Christians can work together no matter what denomination. I do not understand the need to pick apart and argue with other denominations when Christianity as a whole is under attack. How often do you hear about a preacher being protested for speaking out about immorality or people being called hate mongers because they choose to speak out about what they think is immoral and wrong.
I would think we should rejoice in the fact that someone has a testimony of Jesus, even if it is a little different from mine or yours. Wouldn’t you agree?
god bless you too (i think thats something not said enough in our society anymore)
Hi Taylor,
I’m glad to hear that you are enjoying your reading of Romans. It is a very rich book with a lot of invaluable material from the Lord to help us. The Holy Spirit, I sense, is giving us some direction here.
You ask “should I consider any denomination apart from the denomination that I follow evil?” I think it will help our discussion if we pare this down to what is meant by “denomination”. In your previous post , you mentioned Lutherans, Catholics, and Baptists. And in my answer to that post, I mentioned the common creed that is accepted by all denominations that are considered part of the Christian Church. There are some religions that claim to preach Jesus but also do not claim to be part of the Church that accepts this common creed. For instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept this creed. They see themselves as a religion apart. Similarly, Mormons also see themselves apart from this creed and therefore from the universal church. As such, both they and Jehovan’s Witnesses by their own admission and stand apart and also by secular classification (on forms and even wikipedia online) do not consider themselves to be denominations of a larger unit such as the Christian church that bases itself on orthodox teaching and doctrine. I might add that both of these groups started in the 1800’s (mid to late) during a period from which sprang many “teachers” that broke away from established churches that adhered to the common creed of orthodox apostolic teaching. Joseph Smith, like Charles Taze Russell came out of that period of time. So here we come down to 1 Timothy 4:1 and your answer. These individuals I mention previously did depart from what Jesus originally taught (for example, most specifically in Mr. Russell’s case about Hell which Jesus clearly did teach and Mr. Russell emphatically denied as do Jehovah’s Witnesses to this day) Similarly, Mormons teach a “different Jesus” other than the Jesus the scriptures tell us about and the Counselor (and teacher), the Holy Spirit,bears witness to us about. Is this important in light of 1 Timothy 4: 1? 1 Corinthians gives us a second witness to verify that, yes, it is very important when making our decision about someone claiming to be a witness of Jesus but who does not preach what is known from the scriptures and who adds to them with their own ideas for Paul says: ” I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a different Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel (good news) from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.” Then Paul goes on in vs. 13 to expose these false teachers. (1 Corinthians 11:13-15) Do you see here what Paul is getting at in regards to those who preach what is contrary to what is considered the “inspired word of God”? (See 2 Timothy 3:16 about “all scripture being inspired of God”
As to our Bible coming down to us in the form we recognize and term the Holy Scriptures, we can look to two things that establish it as being trustworthy and relaible in its present form. 1) Our trust in God that He is fully capable of making sure that He would protect His word down to our present day so that we could obey Him since our very lives depend on it. and 2) The Bible itself has an internal cannonicity to it as 2 Timothy 3:16 attests to. Most scriptures can be referenced to other scriptures across both the old and new testament. Jesus himself frequently quoted the Hebrew scriptures as did the other New Testament writers under the Holy Spirit’s direction. Indeed, even Satan himself quoted scripture! So the Bible is trustworthy as our source for truth.
In answer to your question about rejoicing over every “testimony of Jesus” , I would say that these are difficult days. They are days the apostle Paul told us would come, full of false teachers, divisions, attacks from without and from within. I agree, It is not easy and it is not going to be easy. But the Father has given us the scriptures and the Holy Spirit as our Counselor and teacher and the whole association of brothers as the Body of Christ to help us navigate our way safely through. If we keep in constant prayer ( 1 Thessalonians 5:17) exercising faith in what has been handed down to us as “healthful teaching” and be cautious, we’ll gain the victory and truly have cause for rejoicing! I hope that helps in seeing the difference.
God bless you,
Melanie
It seems to me that you might never accept the Mormon Church as fellow Christians, and the fact that you want to continue to debate me as to why your faith is more pure or better than that of a Mormon just seems arrogant to me. I can tell you know your scriptures very well, and that is amazing and inspiring. I wish I could quote you verses half as well as you do.
But you have to understand two people can read the same verse in the same translation in the same version of the bible and get two different meanings out of it. That’s simply human nature. Our views are colored by many experiences in our lives. So rather than putting so much effort into trying to prove Mormons wrong, why not be happy they teach very similar beliefs and values? I really do not get it.
Why is it so hard to look beyond that and accept the fact that the Mormon Church teaches good values? Its seems people try to find every little verse that can some how, if you use it in just the right way, be used to justify calling another church “evil” or “of the devil?”
I agree these are difficult days, and attacks are happening from outside and from within. But I do not believe the Mormon Church is that threat that is trying to destroy Christianity from within. How often do you see other Christian churches change their values to be accepting of the perversion all around us? It seems to me that the Mormons are the opposite of that. Rather than conforming to the immorality in the U.S. today, they seem to have stood apart from even from some other Christian churches by not accepting the main stream decline in society. Trying to teach their members to stay away from corrupt movies or immoral social activities. Now how is that of the devil? Yeah I’m sure Satan is really trying to lead Christians away from the teachings of Jesus by having them not take part in drunkenness (Romans 13) or abstain from premarital sex, or not take illicit drugs. You are right, that is so clearly Satan’s path.
Ravi Is a great guy, Joel Osteen is as well. I think the Pope and the President of the Mormon Church are great men also. Why is it so hard to see that Mormons may not be the same but they are still fellow Christians?
ps i would never try to be mean or insult you, thats not my intention, my demeanor is more of a plea for help than a rant.
thank you and god bless you too
Dear Taylor,
I’m sorry if I upset you. That is not my intention. I apologize if I chose the wrong words. I did my best after prayer for the Holy Spirit to help me. If I sounded in any way to be arrogant to you, that was not what was in my heart. My only desire was to help you and I both to reason from the scriptures with the hope of the Holy Spirit. I know this is hard but please hear me on this: it is important to God which way we go and what we understand from His word. If you and I were reading a novel for class and were asked to write an essay about our interpretation of that novel, then yes, I agree with you that you and I might have entirely different interpretations and both might be valid. However, the BIble is not just a book. It is the inspired Word of God. None of us on our own can understand it. That is why we need the Holy Spirit who is our Counselor and our Teacher. What I have written to you is not of my own originality. It comes from God. It comes from men of faith who have proved that faith and have all met in agreement on the basic teachings of the Christ. I admire any person who tries to live a moral life. It is a kindness when we do that for each other. There are many groups who profess to do that and demonstrate that. They are nice people. God wants something more for you and I. Christ came not only to teach us how to live, He came to reconcile us to God. And God has more in store for us than to make us nice people. He wants to make us “Sons of God”. We need the Holy Spirit to do that for us, inside us. He is the one that helps us not to depend on our own interpretations but to have the mind of Christ.
I only meant to help and not to hinder you because love protects. Please forgive me if I have spoken in a way that hurt rather than helped. My intent was to speak in love. I respect what you have to say and will continue to keep you in my prayers. Please do think in prayer about what I have said. God loves you very much.
God Bless you,
Melanie
Thank you, but do not worry. No, you did not offend me, and i hope i did not offend you either. That is why i put the ps, i did not want my comments to sound like i was yelling or standing on a soap box or anything of that nature. And I do appreciate your very kind nature after seeing some of the extremely negative comments above. I am also very humbled by your wanting to pray for a complete stranger, thank you.
I just have the personal belief that god has a plan for us all. And not everyone is going to be willing or able or what ever the reason for not accepting him, it will be worked out. If He is omni benevolent i would think he could forgive even some of the most heinous of people, let alone someone who misinterpreted the bible. That’s why i think it is more important to be accepting of those that are close in belief in order to protect from those that are openly trying to destroy what we hold so dear.
Can you see why i think it is more important to embrace all Christians that teach goodness than accost one sect or another for minor differences over things like, did Jesus have blonde hair or brown? (i was being a little facetious with that one J ) Christianity as a whole is under attack, why fight amongst each other? I would think that is what Evil would want. Pit us against each other so that we are more easily subdued.
i do thank you for you patience and i know you have strong faith. That is a great think in times like these, i just hope we can get along and that Christians will not fight against Christians. i would never hate or put down another Christian because his beliefs very from mine a little. i have plenty of friends that are Roman Catholics or Mormons or Evangelical. We disagree on certain things, but we all believe Jesus died for our sins. Isn’t that really the most important part?
Taylor, and Melly,
If I may….
You have both been very gracious in your attitude and forbearance with each other. I believe Melanie has been very gentle, accurate, and pleasing to God with her answers.
I’d just like answer your last remark, Taylor.
The reason we, who hold the Bible to be the sole and inerrant Word of God, have problems with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Joel Osteen, and anyone who teaches unscripturally, is this:
They either add to or take away from the Holy scriptures. That makes what they teach “another gospel” and Paul, as you know, was adamantly intolerant of any thing other than the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.
We have to expose error or we become partakers of judgment for those same mistakes. (1 Timothy 5:22, Romans 16:17, 2 John 1:10-11). Joseph Smith infamously added to scripture with the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and other writings that the LDS hold in higher esteem and reverence than what we consider to be inspired scripture. The JW’s created their own translation of scripture (New World Translation) and changed key words to fit their theology rather than allowing the original scripture to form their theology! The lack of qualified scholarship in this translation is well documented.
These are grievous errors and their doctrines lead people from faith in the righteousness of Christ for salvation, to faith in personal works and merit. I am sure you will agree that none of us can earn any merit or grace as a result of our own efforts. Very simply, that is why both belief systems make door to door witnessing a mandatory requirement for their followers to fulfill. JW’s must spend many hours each week doing this or they will be considered unworthy of grace. Mormons are obligated to be missionaries for two years in order to qualify for Temple service and other levels of progress within the LDS church. I may be over-simplifying this, but it’s a basic tenet.
While the effort entailed in trying to convert others to their belief system is commendable, the driving force for that effort is their own salvation and that is just wrong. We are created for good works, which evidence to us and the world that we are in Christ, but they don’t earn us grace. We can look forward to rewards for our obedience and faithfulness, knowing that they will all be to Christ’s credit, not ours.
Osteen, on the other hand, preaches and teaches a self-serving, self-loving “gospel”, that pictures God only as a benevolent, supernatural fellow who wants you to succeed in this life. Nothing about the scandal or shame of the cross is taught. Self-love is antithetical to what Jesus called us to: self denial and self sacrificing love for others, even those who don’t deserve it.
The Catholic church makes salvation dependent on the “saving graces” of confession and the Eucharist (which can be denied a person at the whim of a priest or pope), makes the pope the head of Christ’s church instead of Christ Himself, confuses sanctification with a need for purgatory, emphasizes a practical deification of dead saints, and interposes the mother of Jesus as a confessor and intercessor…. all of which are completely unscriptural.
Again, any time the Word is replaced by or added to with what man teaches, it becomes heresy and error (Matthew 15:8-9, Matt 16:12).
God bless you Taylor, for seeking answers. I pray that I have been able to help answer some of your questions. I hope that you understand that I bear no animosity towards any of these people or groups. But, I love the truth too much to approve of their teachings by silent affirmation, when their souls and the souls of others are at stake.
Prodigal you made several excellent points. But, now please hear me out, they were completely unnecessary. I agree with you on almost all of them but that is not my argument. My point is not to convert anyone from what they believe or to say any one sect has the truth. In fact that is the exactly what I am trying to argue against.
Your final paragraph makes perfect sense, and could have been stated by any of the above mentioned churches. For example; The LDS Church believes that god inspired the Book of Mormon and they too love you and the truth too much to let you not hear it when your soul is at stake.
As to any deviations in the Catholic and Mormon Church. They are lead by a prophet, so modern day revelations can be had.
I just want all the denominations to stop the My God is better than Your God game. We all worship the same God. We just have a different understanding. Each sect claims to have the truth.
I can agree with you that you should not sit silently by while other churches are doing missionary work. You should be doing it as well. But I just do not want fellow Christians to speak down about other Christians as not “true” Christians. That seems like such a mistake to me. I would think the best way to do it is to share your faith and ask them to pray about it to see what the Holy Spirit tells them.
Jesus said to love what is right and hate what is evil. But he also said to conquer evil with good not evil. Doesn’t that mean something?
If I have hijacked this thread and anyone holds animosity to me because of it, I am sorry. I was just deeply hurt when I saw Christians speaking so unkind about other Christians, and I wanted to see if I could help. I hope I have, and have not hindered or hurt anyone along the way. Thank you guys for the great conversation and I hope mine has been just as pleasurable. I am glad to see people passionate about their faith. If only the whole world could have that strong of faith.
Taylor,
I’m glad you you brought up your honest questions. You are right, when it seems that everyone believes he or she has the truth, a person who wants to have peace just simply wants everyone to “get along”. In order for that to happen, the philosophy of postmodernism says that everything is relative, your “truth” is as good as mine. So what the postmodernist thinking asserts is that if let everyone believe what they want, we’ll all be able to get along. Now that thinking applied outside the Christian congregation allows that Islam, Christianity, Wicca, and every other religion is ok with God and we just learn to “get along”. Unfortunately, that is not what Islam wants. They are now in governmental talks to make it law that if any Muslim commits apostasy (such as being converted to Christianity, ergo “free will”
they can be punished by death. So this is a very real demonstration that “truth” is not relative. Jesus said I am the truth and the way. Meaning that there is no other in God’s view. So do you see when we start getting into the thinking pattern that “truth” is relative and everybody can have their own it does not lead to peace? It leads to division. Now here is a contrast: Jesus is the “Prince of Peace” but he said “Do you think I came to bring peace on the earth? No, but I tell you division.” (Luke 12:49-56) What did he mean by that? He meant what Prodigal was saying: You and I must love truth so much that we would be willing to lose our mother or father or brother or son or daughter instead of it. That’s how important God feels about truth. It is not relative to him. There will be peace one day Taylor, and you are blessed for wanting it: “Blessed are peacemakers for they will be Sons of God.” But the peace will be on God’s terms not ours. I believe you to be honest-hearted and you are in a place where you can preach to those ones you speak of and that it is no accident that God has placed them in your path. But the choice is yours.
God bless you,
Melanie
Very well said Melly!
Truth is something we can know. If not, why did Jesus promise us “Seek, and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened to you, ask, and you will receive.” ?
Or, “You shall know the truth…”? God isn’t making this a guessing game Taylor. This is a race and it’s one we have to strive to win. (1 Corinth 9:24)
Just remember that not everyone who says “I believe in Jesus” is saved! Many who think they are will be shocked to find out they were dreadfully wrong. (Matt 7:21-29) We are to judge those who err and claim to be of Christ, but are not (1 Corinth 5:12-13).
Finally, Paul says this about those who would be overseers of Christ’s flock: “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” (Titus 1:9 ESV)
I want peace and unity among fellow believers as much as anyone, but Christ told us there would be tares among the wheat and because of that we are to be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves (Matt 10:16).
God bless and guide you into all the truth!
Hi,
Just a thought.
Accepting or not somebody or some religion as “christian” doesn’t mean we don’t love him/her/them. Accepting a belief as “similar” or “same” as mine, mean mine can be substituted by those of the other. Think about it. Be aware of it. Allowing this to happen could mean “my Bible” (or should I say: The Bible) can be put aside in order to asume, let’s say, the book of commandments (or should I say: the book of Doctine and Covenants) is “similar” or “same” or “The Book” to follow. Is that what your Bible says about your beliefs? about Jesus? about truth? I don’t think so. If we accept every religion leads to God no matter the differences (that, by the way, are not “little” in reference to lds), then we fail in what Jesus asked of us: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Mathew 28:19-20a)
God bless you all.
P.S. You can view this videos as general information, but you should make your own research before “accepting” others as your fellow believers. http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a28653a0361e776a4873
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=e0343ae527b263a7b0ab
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=bcbccf2c7cd42d80955a
I just happend on this as I was looking for a talk to listen to before I went to bed. Here is part 1 of the talk part 1 of 5 of the talk he gave and hereis his explanation of what Ravi was trying to do. I don’t know if this was posted before (and my apologies if it was) but it seems to supply a satisfying explanation as to his intent.
God bless you,
Melly
it was said “Ravi was asked by an apparent LDS gir” Question what was he to do argue with the girl. I’m sure the LDS leaders would have stepped in and said something. I believe He was right in avoiding the question at that time.. their is a time and place for things
Here is an update on Ravi and the national day of prayer
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3417/By_Ingrid_Schlueter
Here is you a youtube about the issue concerning Ravi
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/the-ecumenical-national-day-of-prayer/
Arm chair quarterbacking can be fun, but I would simply ask you all to walk a mile in his shoes. He’s living it–on the front lines–day in, day out–in incredibly difficult circumstances. And he is doing it fearlessly and with great wisdom. I would venture to say that he has done more to advance the cause of Christ worldwide than most of us can even imagine. What are we doing? He’s out there doing our dirty work so that we can all sit around, nit pick, and have these safe, esoteric discussions. I, for one, fall way, way short of the mark. And I thank God for raising men like Pastor Zacharias. They are rare. If you have a problem with Mormonism, then I think you’ve found your ministry–get cracking. If you believe Pastor Zacharias has failed in that mission, then you certainly have God’s permission to improve upon it. I’m sure he would appreciate the help.
Another update about the National day of prayer…
This from slice on the 1 May
Then Ravi decided not to pray in the name of Jesus at this event…
This from slice on the 2 May…
I just watched Amistad the film on DVD last night. And I was struck by how many issues that film dealt with are we still dealing with today. How do you open your country’s arms wide and accept all those mentioned in Emma Lazarus’ poem and still maintain those basic tenents upon which this country were founded. What if you feel badly at their treatment and what to make some sort of recompense? What if you compromised what you beleived in to make right the mistakes of those who claimed to be just like you? That’s one viewpoint and an honest one but not completely in harmony with Jesus.
Then there is the viewpoint of not being citizens of this world but of the Kingdom to come. This one that understands that faith and history are inextricably bound. That “chonological snobbery” is not to be believed or practiced. That to follow Christ is to understand that you follow one who is full of paradox and that paradox is the only way to fully grasp the truth. That truth does not change, we do.
Then there is the ground over which living in the world though not part of that world is the viewpoint one must travel. How do we always take the right step? Especially in a country that is tearing itself apart further by trying to mend itself to its own way of thinking. When Malcolm Muggeridge said that “there is no new news only old news happening to new people”, he gave us a context as Christians to explain what C. S. Lewis meant when he used the term “Chronological snobbery”.
These thoughts came to me as I reflected on the film Amistad. How do you do right to a foreign people with different religion whom your country of proported Christian belief has wronged? How do you make that up to them without compromising your faith and the truth? We have had examples. And they are right there in the Bible and Malcolm Muggeridge was right. But we are not doing that as a whole, as a country. That is not to say that individual Christians are not carrying out our Father’s will more closely, they are. But on the whole, the US and those living in the US, many of whom claim to be “Christian”, have gotten themselves into a pickle by relying more on themselves to gain peace than on the God for whom our early forefathers claimed to serve. As a result, whether this contingint realizes it or not, they have taken their eyes off the prize: the real Kingdom, and are trying to build their version of the “kingdom of God on earth” just as the Jewish zealots hoped Jesus’ coming would do for them in their day. Of that contingint, there are more flavors in the soup that I will not cover here due to lack of space and consideration. But within this cacaphonic climate, our preachers and pastors, who know the accurate truth and are trying, I believe, to tell it with sincerity are faced with horrendous choices everyday. The discipline they are enduring publically, in the midst of overwhelmng pressures to speak where the need is greatest and their own struggles with common sin must be beyond words. What is in their minds is only between them and God for a time. But the honest man or woman of God will eventually come forward as did both Peter and Paul and say what was in their heart, not to expiate themselves, but lead the flock carefully out of love which God has placed in their care. There is not a leader in the Bible that did not make a misstep. Not one. And it takes a lot of them, without repentence, for God to remove the annointing of a proven leader. I liken it to the submission a wife is under with her husband. Who of us could take on that role more successfully than those God has already obviously put his spirit of teaching upon? As the scriptures remind us, these are under a heavier judgement, so it recommends: “not many of you should be teachers.” (James 3:1) This is not an enviable position to be in but it is a calling. We are living in some of the most difficult of all Christian time periods, the period where every move is crucial. The tea cup is sitting on the edge of the table. Scrutiny will be unbearable. Who but the truly arrogant or the truly called will be in the public eye as teachers under that kind of scrutiny? In one week the mainstream news has covered one man very publicallly, the Internet has covered the other. What does God have to say about both? What do faith and history tell us of what has happend to such men in the past? There is part of our direction. The other part is in prayer and the leading of the Holy Sprit. Of misstep or outright sin, I do not have what is in the man’s heart. I only have his complex actions which tell me there was some confusion and misunderstanding somewhere. And that is the problem we are all being faced with in this pluralistic, relativistic society: learning to operate within the paradox of truth that Jesus taught us. When to advance, when to keep quiet, when to speak boldly, when to do this or that and do it all under scrutiny, under test, under speed of the pace of our lives and do it perfectly in harmony with the Holy Spirit at all times. Have any of us done that this week? I know I haven’t. But I know I have done the best I could, even if sloppily, from God’s perfect standard. I say “sloppily” because its the best word I can find at the moment to describe how far off the mark I feel I must be from God’s holiness. I am grateful for His love in covering over my sloppy lopsided cake baking efforts at living the Christian life. On my best day that must be what it really looks like.
Again, I am going to imagine what I would be doing in such a setting as the National Day of Prayer. I received an email and due to being sick did not have the energy to go onto the Internet and get involved at their web site on top of the other spiritual things needing my attention and the work I needed to do. I made a choice. I, though, would have though